JFT96

[southportdc]

Honest opinion then mate....were Liverpool fans blameless?...because thats the crux of this dogs breakfast of a thread...answer honestly...

I don't think they're blameless, purely because they - along with fans of other clubs- were a major reason the situation developed where fans were penned in, and where attempts to escape a crush were seen as crowd trouble rather than an emergency. Basically the behaviour of football fans over a period of time had created the situation where the Disaster could occur. BUT on that day I honestly do not believe they acted out of keeping with what fans of another club would have done, and that the authorities messed up by continuing to let people into the central pens where a crush was developing whilst other pens were under capacity. I genuinely believe that it would not have occurred if a couple of blokes stood in front of the tunnel and directed people to the side.

I can also see why they chase "justice"- no-one has ever given an explanation for allowing the central pens to become so full, and when that is considered in conjunction with the reports of people still living after the cutoff at 3.15 (?), ambulances being blocked from the pitch etc I think there should be some repercussion for those people charged with ensuring the fan's safety.

That all said, I think the Justice campaign does go too far on occasion- most notably in the stance on safe standing, which is clearly very different to the terraces but taken as an insult to the memory of the dead. However maybe if there is someone held accountable- rather than the focus on what share of the blame Liverpool fans should take, maybe a focus on one of the other parties involved- maybe then the families will begin to move on.

Geographically, Southport adjacent to Liverpool. I now see the reasoning behind your reply.Yeah.By the way what you have just mentioned did it happen or not. 'Nearly' surely doesn't count. So your confidence is misplaced somewhat.

I'd add to the people who've already confirmed the events in 1981 that as far as I can see, the ONLY difference which meant Spurs fans didn't suffer that fate is the entrance to the middle pens was eventually closed in 1981, whereas it was left open in 1989. People had to climb out onto the pitch to escape the crush that was developing.

And I'm very much on the side of the people who prefer to think of Southport as Lancashire than Merseyside....

Thought my reply was aimed at the person originally replying to my first (southportdc) unless you are one of the same with 2 sign ons. Got to tread very carefully here as you are one of the 'established ' posters but seeing as you have got involved what is your opinion with regard to Hillsboro 96 and Hysel. Would you say there was a similarity in the end result, sonny. Bit more serious the latter than broken arms and ribs. Wouldn't you agree. I'll probably get a response from Southportdc.

I wish I was Sonny

[Guest]

Let me throw this one in the mix.

'Justice' or a 'payout'?

[southportdc]

I don't know. If you had a family member killed through what you saw as incompetence, but the person or people you thought were to blame said it was your fault, would you just accept that?

I wouldn't. Guess that's why I can see the Liverpool fan's point of view.

[vulva]

I don't know. If you had a family member killed through what you saw as incompetence, but the person or people you thought were to blame said it was your fault, would you just accept that?

I wouldn't. Guess that's why I can see the Liverpool fan's point of view.

And that's a fair point, but Liverpool as a football club don't do themselves any favours at all. Even the Everton fans sing 'always the victim, never your fault'.

[southportdc]

Just because they like to sulk and whine doesn't mean they can't actually be the victims this time

[apswfcowl]

I don't think anyone has claimed that no mistakes were made that contributed to what happened but clearly many people would just like the Liverpool fans to acknowledge that some of them also contributed to the disaster too. That's is all, won't happen though will it southportdc?

Oh, and maybe remember Hysel too rather than just sweeping it under the carpet.

[southportdc]

They have a memorial service for Heysel every year, and I'm pretty sure they'd mark it during a match on the day had it not happened on 29th May and therefore almost always after Liverpool's season is over.

But I do think Heysel is very important in this debate as the despicable actions of Liverpool fans on that day undoubtedly clouded opinions of events at Hillsborough, regardless of if they were the same people.

[Sonny]

Thought my reply was aimed at the person originally replying to my first (southportdc) unless you are one of the same with 2 sign ons. Got to tread very carefully here as you are one of the 'established ' posters but seeing as you have got involved what is your opinion with regard to Hillsboro 96 and Hysel. Would you say there was a similarity in the end result, sonny. Bit more serious the latter than broken arms and ribs. Wouldn't you agree. I'll probably get a response from Southportdc.

I was just responding with the facts as I understand them, and there's no need for you to tread carefully around me mate. I've just talked shiite more times and for longer than most. My thoughts? They've all been said before, in other threads and by other people in this thread. Maybe I'll type some more later. All I will say now is that nobody deserves to go to a football match and not come home, and nobody there on that day wanted anyone to die but only some of them were paid to prevent that happening.

[alco]

wonderful thing hindsight,we.d all be millionaires if we had it......but we dont.If i was the police in charge of the outside gate at the lep and saw fans getting crushed in front of me,id have ordered the gate to be opened as they did b4 someone was killed and b4 measures were put in place to block the tunnel.Sometimes you just react to what you see before you, rather than see the bigger picture,im just glad i wasnt in charge cos id have done the same and taken the guilt to my grave, misplaced or not.Was it drunken pool fans ?,was it syp incompetance.?....i think it may have been a bit of both but maybe the incompetance bit occurred after the crush

[darra]

I don't think they're blameless, purely because they - along with fans of other clubs- were a major reason the situation developed where fans were penned in, and where attempts to escape a crush were seen as crowd trouble rather than an emergency. Basically the behaviour of football fans over a period of time had created the situation where the Disaster could occur. BUT on that day I honestly do not believe they acted out of keeping with what fans of another club would have done, and that the authorities messed up by continuing to let people into the central pens where a crush was developing whilst other pens were under capacity. I genuinely believe that it would not have occurred if a couple of blokes stood in front of the tunnel and directed people to the side.

I can also see why they chase "justice"- no-one has ever given an explanation for allowing the central pens to become so full, and when that is considered in conjunction with the reports of people still living after the cutoff at 3.15 (?), ambulances being blocked from the pitch etc I think there should be some repercussion for those people charged with ensuring the fan's safety.

That all said, I think the Justice campaign does go too far on occasion- most notably in the stance on safe standing, which is clearly very different to the terraces but taken as an insult to the memory of the dead. However maybe if there is someone held accountable- rather than the focus on what share of the blame Liverpool fans should take, maybe a focus on one of the other parties involved- maybe then the families will begin to move on.

I'd add to the people who've already confirmed the events in 1981 that as far as I can see, the ONLY difference which meant Spurs fans didn't suffer that fate is the entrance to the middle pens was eventually closed in 1981, whereas it was left open in 1989. People had to climb out onto the pitch to escape the crush that was developing.

And I'm very much on the side of the people who prefer to think of Southport as Lancashire than Merseyside....

I wish I was Sonny

Often thought about this and I'm sure I heard somewhere, quite a while ago, that in the case of mass fatalities coroners often gave a time of death as a specific time as in this case 15:15. for all victims. Sure I also heard that this was for administrative purposes. As I say it was quite a while ago so maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

[Bearwood Owl1]

http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

Meant to say that perhaps a read of the report might clarify a few thoughts.

[ClaireTheDonnyOwl]

The only justice those poor souls who turned up early, with tickets who were totally blameless would get, would be if the thousands who turned up with tickets who left the pubs out of their skulls and rampaged down Halifax road knowing full well what they were doing had been charged with retrospective manslaughter!!!! It is an insult to pretend they are asking for justice whilst totally ignoring the facts that are an inconvenience to them. The Sun newspaper suffered the consequence of even 'hinting' at the truth with a blanket Merseyside ban on selling the newspaper. I walked out of the minutes silence at the first Wednesday match following the disaster, due to the sheer blatant hypocrisy of the events as they were being reported. I also had witnessed friends being stabbed walking back to coaches. Young skanks on bikes whizzing past slashing people with 'Stanley'. I would have had a lot more respect for JFT 96 if even 1 scouser had come out and gone public and admitted that even in some small way they were partly (or solely) to blame. Not a peep!! Professional victims to a man, and i won't even mention the compensation that SWFC ought to have received for lost revenue from the Heysel ban. Obviously caused by unruly Italians running riot and killing themselves. JFT 96?? Maybe the truth would be justice enough!!!

Spot on. Perhaps SWFC as a club together with us fans should join together and ask for this whole justice poo to stop.

I bet there was a thread almost identical to this a year ago.

It has to stop. I'm fed up of having it rammed down our throats. And don't forget every time we go to watch a home game we have to look at that tunnel. It's a constant reminder anyway without anything else.

[darra]

wait till we get back to the Premiership and play Liverpool at home. I reckon the poo will hit the fan with Nuclear ferocity

[wakefieldowl]

Southport, you say Liverpool fans acted same as all fans dd at that time. So why was the kop end full of forest fans at 2-30. No one was outside at the Kop end. We had a few big games round that time and we were generally all inside in plenty of time. We didn't want to be anywhere else but enjoying the atmosphere. Truth is to Liverpool the semi wasn't a 'big' game. You were used to finals every year.

I really don't get why this is still an issue. Everyone knows what happened that day, as is well documented on this thread. The people that died were all innocent. They were there on time and had tickets. The rest is like all disasters, a culmination of an unfortunate and unforeseen chain of incidents. It seems that everyone has accepted their portion of blame except one

[Shifty Powers]

For any of the older fans among us, I am curious to know what was the atmosphere like the first time Liverpool came back to Hillsborough to play us?

Was it nasty, poisonous or more somber and quiet?

[ReadingOwl]

For any of the older fans among us, I am curious to know what was the atmosphere like the first time Liverpool came back to Hillsborough to play us?

Was it nasty, poisonous or more somber and quiet?

I attended the game where they officially boycotted the away end (the fans - not the club).

There were probably about 10 Liverpool fans in total in the lower Leppings Lane end.

Before the game we had a minutes silence which was fully observed, but prior to it, the Bishop of Liverpool (I think) said a few words but his microphone wasn't working properly. He sounded like Norman Collier.

Not trying to be funny - that is how it was. Stuck in my mind.

We won 1 - 0.

IIRC Cresswell scored. Guessing 1999?

Would that be too early for Cresswell?

[southportdc]

Southport, you say Liverpool fans acted same as all fans dd at that time. So why was the kop end full of forest fans at 2-30. No one was outside at the Kop end. We had a few big games round that time and we were generally all inside in plenty of time. We didn't want to be anywhere else but enjoying the atmosphere. Truth is to Liverpool the semi wasn't a 'big' game. You were used to finals every year.

I really don't get why this is still an issue. Everyone knows what happened that day, as is well documented on this thread. The people that died were all innocent. They were there on time and had tickets. The rest is like all disasters, a culmination of an unfortunate and unforeseen chain of incidents. It seems that everyone has accepted their portion of blame except one

First of all take issue with the bit in bold!

Secondly I'm not saying that every game every team had fans arriving 15 mins before kick off and struggling to get in on time. Just that what Liverpool fans did that day was not out of the ordinary for them or for other fans.

[scram]

You're right about the culture and habits of football fans back then - but that doesn't exonerate or excuse the fans or the part they played in the disaster on this occasion

I think thats what many are getting at tbh - that it seems that the justice campaign either wanna airbrush the role of the fans from history - or at the very least completely downplay the role of fans arriving late.

I rememeber being at Kenilworth Road and outside there was quite a crush of Wednesday fans due to the limited turnstyles being open - we were forced up against the big wooden exit gates and it became apparent these gates were buckling under the pressure of fans - the fans then started to try to make the gates buckle more and they were really bending under the strain - some police were trying to get the fans away on the outside and by then i had got in the ground through the turnstyle - as i got in i saw the buckling gates and there were a line of police trying to hold them upright against the outside pressure - if the gates had yielded there'd have been fatalities for sure. Now, nobody wanted or expected that and we were only doing what fans did every week anyway. Would that have exonerated us as just doing what fans normally do if somebody had died?

It's a rhetorical question really but the point remains - how or why the fans were implicit is an integral part of what happened - not the sole cause, but one of the reasons.

For truth and justice to prevail then all the facts need to emerge - even the less palatable ones

[NYCOWL]

For any of the older fans among us, I am curious to know what was the atmosphere like the first time Liverpool came back to Hillsborough to play us?

Was it nasty, poisonous or more somber and quiet?

It was pretty sombre. I can't remember the score.

I went to the semi final, I was sat in the south stand, a couple of rows from the front and I saw a couple of things going on at pitch level that haunt me to this day.

I remember the time between the disaster and the end of the season as being pretty terrible for atmosphere, I would catch myself just staring at that end for really long periods of time.

It was just an awful thing, it really was.

Edited April 17, 2012 by NYCOWL

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

Personally, my thoughts are with the families of the 1500 plus who perished on the Titanic 100 years ago today..R.I.P

Another corporate manslaughter along class lines.