Jordan Rhodes - Disaster

[Spencerowl]

38 pages tho 

[Guest RocketOwl]

4 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

Ok so Jordan Rhodes scored goals for fun at this level with Blackburn then got a move to Middlesbrough, he helped them to the Premier League with his goals towards the end of that season.

 

He then got to the Premier League but didn't play much and was moved on to us, we paid a decent fee for him but he's struggling to find his best form, your answer to that is that he's done, he's finished.

 

In contrast both Gary Madine and Leon Clarke have been bouncing around League One/Two and yet they are now in the Championship and scoring regular goals.

 

How can that be?

Madine and Leon Clarke may have been in a lower league but they never stopped scoring goals and playing well.

 

You are judging Rhodes from four seasons ago. You are stuck in the past. He's showing clear signs he cannot even do the basics a striker should do - you mention Madine and Clarke but Madine and Clarke dare I say it are better footballers. 

[Guest RocketOwl]

4 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

Funny thing is, he almost scored one against Cardiff.

Wasn't really a one on one where he had to rely on his running - was just a fantastic pass from Joao into his path - worryingly he hadn't made the run. 

[Sgt Wednesday]

4 minutes ago, RocketOwl said:

Wasn't really a one on one where he had to rely on his running - was just a fantastic pass from Joao into his path - worryingly he hadn't made the run. 

 

I am pretty sure he was on the end of the pass and got a shot off, how did he not make the run?

 

You are confusing yourself now.

 

 

[Sgt Wednesday]

6 minutes ago, RocketOwl said:

Madine and Leon Clarke may have been in a lower league but they never stopped scoring goals and playing well.

 

You are judging Rhodes from four seasons ago. You are stuck in the past. He's showing clear signs he cannot even do the basics a striker should do - you mention Madine and Clarke but Madine and Clarke dare I say it are better footballers. 

 

Gary Madine 3 goals in 41 championship appearances for us, how was he not finished then?

 

Leon Clarke 7 games and 0 goals for Charlton in League 1, shipped out to Crawley in League 2, care to explain?

[DJMortimer]

16 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

Gary Madine 3 goals in 41 championship appearances for us, how was he not finished then?

Leon Clarke 7 games and 0 goals for Charlton in League 1, shipped out to Crawley in League 2

 

Madine had 11+30 Championship appearances. So given what you said earlier about how important starting games is, that's not too bad at all. 

 

Clarke only started 1 game at Charlton. But in the midst of that period he scored 11 in 14+1 games at Scunthorpe on loan.

 

A lot of this shows just how nebulous statistics can be. It also demonstrates clearly how they can be moulded to infer a predetermined outcome.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by DJMortimer

[Sgt Wednesday]

Rocket, do yourself a favour and watch the extended highlights and only watch Jordan Rhodes, ignore everything else that happens.

 

Then give me your opinion.

 

 

[Spencerowl]

2 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

Rocket, do yourself a favour and watch the extended highlights and only watch Jordan Rhodes, ignore everything else that happens.

 

Then give me your opinion.

 

 

 

He loves him really 

[Sgt Wednesday]

1 minute ago, DJMortimer said:

 

11+30 Championship appearances. So given what you said earlier about how important starting games is, that's not too bad at all.

 

A lot of this shows just how nebulous statistics can be. It also demonstrates clearly how they can be moulded to infer a predetermined outcome.

 

 

You can't have it both ways, you were the one confidently throwing out stats earlier, now stats are nebulous.

 

Join Rocket and watch the extended highlights, only watch JR and his link up play outside the box.

 

Then please explain why he's getting all this stick this week? No stats just watch him and give an opinion.

 

 

[Guest RocketOwl]

41 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

I am pretty sure he was on the end of the pass and got a shot off, how did he not make the run?

 

You are confusing yourself now.

 

 

Watch it.

[Guest RocketOwl]

36 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

Gary Madine 3 goals in 41 championship appearances for us, how was he not finished then?

 

Leon Clarke 7 games and 0 goals for Charlton in League 1, shipped out to Crawley in League 2, care to explain?

Living in past pal.

 

Thats my last comment on Jordan Rhodes until the end of the season.

 

 

[Sgt Wednesday]

11 minutes ago, RocketOwl said:

Living in past pal.

 

Thats my last comment on Jordan Rhodes until the end of the season.

 

 

 

So we are agreeing that players can have dips and come back from them, nice one, it took a while but we got there.

[DJMortimer]

Just now, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

You can't have it both ways, you were the one confidently throwing out stats earlier, now stats are nebulous.

 

 

Over and over again I've explained this, but when people are in disputes things often get distilled into binary opposites. My argument has three main thrusts:

 

1) You are looking at it upside down. Rhodes' supporters keep claiming that he will deliver goals. No qualification; just that. He certainly did it three years and further ago. So it is perfectly legitimate to list what the numbers show. There is no selectivity. Cup games are omitted only because the whoscored website doesn't include them (and Hooper, Fletcher, Nuhiu, Matias and Rhodes have all registered in them this season so I doubt it would change a whole lot). I've shown all league minutes for this season, last season and the entire time at the club. In each case, other strikers are outperforming him clearly and he even doesn't fare well in some instances against a central midfielder and even a centre back (although in the latter case the sample is admittedly quite small and anomalous). Nuhiu in particular would be justified in wondering why the treatment of the two of them has been so starkly different when the basis of this - their overall scoring rates at SWFC, are quite similar. 

 

2) Judging strikers by goals, appearances, minutes, assists, shot conversion percentage or whatever has a large degree of randomness about it. Really, it all comes down to whether they are contributing to the overall team scoring effort. When Arsenal went through the league season unbeaten a few years ago, Henry scored over 30 I think, but all of their other strikers combined (including big names like Bergkamp, Wiltord, Reyes and Kanu) got about 10. You could hardly argue that they weren't playing their part though. Which would be the more impressive feat? Aguero scoring 25 at Man City or Wilbraham netting 15 for Swansea? Numbers without context are almost worthless and prone to manipulation.

So forgetting the figures and watching the guy actually playing; which is always the most reliable measure, he is not performing well. Our cautious approach under Carvalhal has been a big problem but he's been wasteful with the chances he's had. That is after all, why we bought him - to convert those. He is slow and therefore no threat to get behind defenders, does not win the ball often in the air, cannot run at opponents and take them on, often chooses not to compete physically to retain possession (flopping unconvincingly on the floor too much), is not strong when he does and has not been a big factor in incisive passing movements.

 

3) This isn't Rhodes fault obviously, but he was an unnecessary purchase. We already had 6 experienced strikers at the club and another youngster apparently getting frustrated at the lack of opportunities. And the huge financial outlay has had predictable consequences on our recruitment strategy (what there is of one) that is unhelpful in our current circumstances. No, this is not just hindsight. I was concerned about these factors before the transfer even happened.

 

Whether you agree with that or not, I fail to see why it gets people quite so angry. If he plays well in the future, then why would I have a problem keeping him in the team? But from what I've seen so far, I'm not optimistic that will happen. And right now, we do have better options, with still more waiting to come back from injury.

 

I'll back off a bit now as I'm sort of repeating myself and I can do without the to and fro.

[Guest RocketOwl]

42 minutes ago, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

You can't have it both ways, you were the one confidently throwing out stats earlier, now stats are nebulous.

 

Join Rocket and watch the extended highlights, only watch JR and his link up play outside the box.

 

Then please explain why he's getting all this stick this week? No stats just watch him and give an opinion.

 

 

a game is 90 minutes. 

[Sgt Wednesday]

8 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Over and over again I've explained this, but when people are in disputes things often get distilled into binary opposites. My argument has three main thrusts:

 

1) You are looking at it upside down. Rhodes' supporters keep claiming that he will deliver goals. No qualification; just that. He certainly did it three years and further ago. So it is perfectly legitimate to list what the numbers show. There is no selectivity. Cup games are omitted only because the whoscored website doesn't include them (and Hooper, Fletcher, Nuhiu, Matias and Rhodes have all registered in them this season so I doubt it would change a whole lot). I've shown all league minutes for this season, last season and the entire time at the club. In each case, other strikers are outperforming him clearly and he even doesn't fare well in some instances against a central midfielder and even a centre back (although in the latter case the sample is admittedly quite small and anomalous). Nuhiu in particular would be justified in wondering why the treatment of the two of them has been so starkly different when the basis of this - their overall scoring rates at SWFC, are quite similar. 

 

2) Judging strikers by goals, appearances, minutes, assists, shot conversion percentage or whatever has a large degree of randomness about it. Really, it all comes down to whether they are contributing to the overall team scoring effort. When Arsenal went through the league season unbeaten a few years ago, Henry scored over 30 I think, but all of their other strikers combined (including big names like Bergkamp, Wiltord, Reyes and Kanu) got about 10. You could hardly argue that they weren't playing their part though. Which would be the more impressive feat? Aguero scoring 25 at Man City or Wilbraham netting 15 for Swansea? Numbers without context are almost worthless and prone to manipulation.

So forgetting the figures and watching the guy actually playing; which is always the most reliable measure, he is not performing well. Our cautious approach under Carvalhal has been a big problem but he's been wasteful with the chances he's had. That is after all, why we bought him - to convert those. He is slow and therefore no threat to get behind defenders, does not win the ball often in the air, cannot run at opponents and take them on, often chooses not to compete physically to retain possession (flopping unconvincingly on the floor too much), is not strong when he does and has not been a big factor in incisive passing movements.

 

3) This isn't Rhodes fault obviously, but he was an unnecessary purchase. We already had 6 experienced strikers at the club and another youngster apparently getting frustrated at the lack of opportunities. And the huge financial outlay has had predictable consequences on our recruitment strategy (what there is of one) that is unhelpful in our current circumstances. No, this is not just hindsight. I was concerned about these factors before the transfer even happened.

 

Whether you agree with that or not, I fail to see why it gets people quite so angry. If he plays well in the future, then why would I have a problem keeping him in the team? But from what I've seen so far, I'm not optimistic that will happen. And right now, we do have better options, with still more waiting to come back from injury.

 

I'll back off a bit now as I'm sort of repeating myself and I can do without the to and fro.

 

All great stuff, moving forward then only you are allowed to use stats and if anyone else uses them they become pointless/worthless (as per this thread).

 

The extended highlights show most of our play in the final third against Cardiff, you say the best way to judge a player is by watching them play, I agree, watch the highlights and tell me what Jordan Rhodes could have done better.

 

Watch his link up play outside the box, watch his movement around the box, watch him shrug off a very powerful Sol Bamba for the Joao header.

 

Like I said at the very beginning of this thread, he just needed a goal and his performance deserved one.

 

Many of you are judging him only on goals and that stems back to under Carlos, all the other underperforming players have had a fresh start with the new manager except for one man.

 

Give the f'kin lad a break, who knows with a bit of support from the fanbase he might get back to his best.

 

 

 

 

[Sgt Wednesday]

8 minutes ago, RocketOwl said:

a game is 90 minutes. 

 

Thanks for that, Jordan Rhodes is a striker, therefore is main contribution will be in the final third, the chances we created are on the extended highlights. I take it you have watched the highlights and can't see anything wrong.

 

[DJMortimer]

Just now, Sgt Wednesday said:

 

All great stuff, moving forward then only you are allowed to use stats and if anyone else uses them they become pointless/worthless (as per this thread).

 

 

I used all strikers, all available game minutes, all goals and all seasons at the club. There is little else to include relevant to Wednesday except maybe for assists which are not favourable to him either. The irony of course is that Rhodes' supporters set his strike rate as the primary frame of reference, not me.

 

Your statistics (regarding Madine/Clarke and whether games were started or not) were very carefully selected and filtered, and you know it. So the lip trembling is a bit hypocritical really.

 

[stanningtonowl]

On 22 January 2018 at 08:18, Watto said:

Why don't we bring in someone on loan with some pace who might bang in a few goals , at the moment we are stuck with possibly the poorest strike force in this division ( Rhodes Joao and Nuhui) with no sign of Hooper, Fletcher and foresteiri coming back any time soon, is it unrealistic to loan a striker?

Could try for Winnall at Derby. He seems to be doing alright and would score goals in this team given a run. See if they need any midfielders and see if they want Butterfield as a trade. 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

4 hours ago, RocketOwl said:

Thats my last comment on Jordan Rhodes until the end of the season.

 

Your balls are going to be sooooooooooooooo blue by then.

 

[Jim]

One thing Rhodes hasn’t really had with us is an extended run in the team. It looks as though in the league at least, he is now going to get this. Whether it makes much of a difference only time will tell.