Retained list will be my decision insists Stuart Gray

[Blue and white]

First fact has no relevance to the discussion

Second fact is wrong - he has more experience than that.

Third fact applies to lots of managers

Fourth fact is actually an opinion - although I do agree with your opinion that he was "the cheap option", the implication that he is rubbish because he was the cheap option is flawed IMHO

Ok fella.

[Rogerwyldesmullet]

It is daft to suggest any fan on OT has no reason for supporting or denigrating Grays achievements On the plus side: good signings like Lees Westwood, away wins and the clean sheets.

On the negative: indecisive loan arrangements, crap home form, very few goals.

On the worrying side: I haven't seen him sat with Glenn Adam and Mr C in the same room. This causes me to surmise they are distancing themselves from him in a way that makes it easier to junk him if they want to.

Perhaps the bookies are the objective voice here - are there any odds?

[Bob]

"Half a brain"

 

Don't make me laugh. He has done a mediocre job with the resources available.

 

We have moved on from mediocre and want better - simple. If you were holding the purse strings, would you honestly trust Gray to deliver  ?

[Blue and white]

"Half a brain"

 

Don't make me laugh. He has done a mediocre job with the resources available.

 

We have moved on from mediocre and want better - simple. If you were holding the purse strings, would you honestly trust Gray to deliver  ?

Sorry mate meant to plus you. Absolutely spot on.

[shandypants]

Ok fella.

 

Thanks.  You done in this thread then? 

[Blue and white]

Thanks.  You done in this thread then?

I'm waiting for you to answer my post not side step it.

[Bluesteel]

Gray signed him. And full credit to him for that.

But the point remains - our defence hasn't been anywhere near as solid as people have made out. Without Loovens we've positively been leaking goals. Start of the season our entire setup was to not concede goals and limit opposition chances, and guess what? Teams still created golden opportunities that were only denied by Westwoods brilliance.

Don't get me wrong. I like Palmer, I think Lees is a good player, Loovens is bloody magnificent and Mattock also half decent. But lets not exaggerate here - we've not been half as good as people have made out defensively. And that has also come at the cost of us creating next to nothing up front.

But at the end of the day the clean sheets are there. Every side with a good defence still needs to rely on a top goal keeper.

Bournemouth wouldn't have been promoted without Calum Wilson or Watford without Derby/ighalobut that's not taking things away from their manager.

The defence hasn't been what it was since Xmas but prior to that it was fairly solid and even top defensive sides rely on their keeper to make a good save most games, that's why they're so important.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

"Half a brain"

 

Don't make me laugh. He has done a mediocre job with the resources available.

 

We have moved on from mediocre and want better - simple. If you were holding the purse strings, would you honestly trust Gray to deliver  ?

 

He's maximized the potential of our current squad. When you looked at our team going into this season, did you honestly expect us to be higher in the table?

 

We've overachieved compared to most people's pre-season expectations.There was a post on here recently showing that the bookmakers had us 17th favourites for the Championship. If you compare the bookmakers' odds with other pre-season predictions, they're all broadly similar: a pre-season prediction table by fans of all Championship clubs in When Saturday Comes magazine also placed us 17th, whereas the journalists of FourFourTwo thought we'd finish 16th. That we'll finish somewhere between 14th and 10th suggests we've had a marginally better season than most had us down for. What I find most startling about the recent calls for Gray's sacking is that many pre-season predictions on Owlstalk were suggesting we were relegation candidates who'd do well to avoid the drop this season.

 

I understand the criticisms of our poor attacking record, but Gray has had relatively limited tools to work with this season and has done a good job of maximizing our points tally given the relative qualities of our squad: if you look at our pool of attackers compared to our defensive players, it's fairly obvious where our strengths and weaknesses lie; to criticise Gray for taking advantage of these strengths when he hasn't been backed to the level required to properly address our weaknesses, seems a little short-sighted to me.

 

Last season, when we had strikers who would get a game for clubs at the top end of the Championship table in Wickham and Fryatt, we saw a more attacking style of play which brought us more goals. There's no reason to expect Gray not to return to a similar style once he has the players to justify doing so.

 

When we see the strength of our squad going in to next season, then we can properly reassess and predict what we feel reasonable progress will be. Until then all we can go on is the evidence of our progress so far, and for me at least, we've done better than most expected at the start of the season - that's not 'mediocre'.

[Bluesteel]

He also signed May.

So? Even the top managers sign players who struggle. He signed Lees too and Mcgugan

Completely irrelevant to the point I was making.

Besides May looked a lot better about a third of the way into the season than he does now. I won't be judging him fully until next season if he sticks around

There isn't that much you can buy for 800k in any case.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Bluesteel

[Guest shakesby]

OK - I'm going to lay my cards on the table, and say it how it actually is without any bias from either side.

 

Gray, this season, has done a relatively good job. He has come in, and do some things very well - such as getting the players on side, setting the side up solidly making sure our weaknesses are avoided and strengths are taken advantage of with the players at our disposal. He's signed some good players, some the jury is still out on. There's no question he's popular in the club, he's a genuine guy and that is absolutely refreshing to see considering some of the people we've had in charge of the team over the last 10 years or so. I suspect every single person on this thread would be delighted if he was the guy to take us up, because, to spout a cliche, he's a 'proper' football man.

 

But that's not to say this season has been perfect, or even as good as people have made out. 

 

Firstly, this season has probably been financially, and emotionally, the most stable it has been since our relegation from the Premier League in my opinion. Yes, we haven't hit the heights of 9th like we did with Laws, but we also had an owner in Mandaric who is respectable and had the clubs best interests at heart, unlike back then. In effect, you could say this has been the easiest season since our relegation for any manager. There's been next to no backlash, no serious aggravation, the players have all got along, the club has been performing fairly well. Even considering our poor home form, it hasn't really been looked aggressively upon like it would have been in the past. This has been our Switzerland year, and it would probably have been more difficult for Gray not to have done well really. Next season will be different because there will be expectations, pressure, and the fans won't accept poor results. 

 

Next, moving on to that home form, it simply hasn't been good enough. You can make as many excuses up as you like about the pitch, the clean sheets, the poor strikers, the point still remains we were better at home in our relegation seasons than we were this year. There is absolutely no logical way to excuse it. Gray has said it's because of our style of play, which begs the question - why not change it and actually train for this style of play instead of insisting on a passing game that simply isn't suitable? It shocks a lack of tactical flexibility and a rigidity in opinion that could hinder the club if we're serious about promotion. We need to be flexible, we need to be able to adapt, not just persist with one style even if it doesn't work. We need Hillsborough to be the ground where we pick up points. You simply do not get promoted with home form like ours, and it needs sorting next year - no excuses.

 

Thirdly, the lack of goals full stop. I'm going to put this down to Gray realising quite early on in the season that staying tight and grinding out results suits this bunch of players. We do it well. Last season, if you all remember, we were pretty fluid, we attacked a lot and scored quite a few goals; but we also conceded quite a lot. Gray has struggled to find the balance this year in team set-up. You have to say that with better players, you suspect that Gray will be more adept at doing this, but the signings have raised one or two question marks in my eyes - they are all mainly defenders. 

 

This year we've signed Vermilj, Westwood, Lees, Dielna, Melo, Hutchinson... All fairly defensively minded players. Attacking options? McGugan, Bus, Keane and May - possibly Isgrove, but he seems more of an inside left than an actual wide player, providing a lot of defensive cover. It seems like Gray is determined not to strengthen the areas we actually need working on, take Vermilj, as an example of that.

 

People also seem to forget that, overall, we have 'apparently' (according to Gray in his interviews) made numerous bids and offers for loads of players on loan and permanently, usually in an attacking sense, but none of them have wanted to sign. Which again begs the question - why? It is very unusual.

 

My final criticism is that we are going to finish in 14th position. Not even top half. Which is concerning for such a great season which we're supposed to have had. Is it actually the case? Have we really been that good? Personally, I don't see it. We've had some remarkable success this year, the clean sheets, signing Westwood, our away form, arguably league position, the takeover... But also some very big doubts, mainly the home form and lack of goals. 

 

Stuff needs addressing, and it needs addressing soon. However, not drastic change needs doing, and that includes keeping Gray.

[gurujuan]

He's maximized the potential of our current squad. When you looked at our team going into this season, did you honestly expect us to be higher in the table?

 

We've overachieved compared to most people's pre-season expectations.There was a post on here recently showing that the bookmakers had us 17th favourites for the Championship. If you compare the bookmakers' odds with other pre-season predictions, they're all broadly similar: a pre-season prediction table by fans of all Championship clubs in When Saturday Comes magazine also placed us 17th, whereas the journalists of FourFourTwo thought we'd finish 16th. That we'll finish somewhere between 14th and 10th suggests we've had a marginally better season than most had us down for. What I find most startling about the recent calls for Gray's sacking is that many pre-season predictions on Owlstalk were suggesting we were relegation candidates who'd do well to avoid the drop this season.

 

I understand the criticisms of our poor attacking record, but Gray has had relatively limited tools to work with this season and has done a good job of maximizing our points tally given the relative qualities of our squad: if you look at our pool of attackers compared to our defensive players, it's fairly obvious where our strengths and weaknesses lie; to criticise Gray for taking advantage of these strengths when he hasn't been backed to the level required to properly address our weaknesses, seems a little short-sighted to me.

 

Last season, when we had strikers who would get a game for clubs at the top end of the Championship table in Wickham and Fryatt, we saw a more attacking style of play which brought us more goals. There's no reason to expect Gray not to return to a similar style once he has the players to justify doing so.

 

When we see the strength of our squad going in to next season, then we can properly reassess and predict what we feel reasonable progress will be. Until then all we can go on is the evidence of our progress so far, and for me at least, we've done better than most expected at the start of the season - that's not 'mediocre'.

Pretty much sums it up.

[Bluesteel]

No ones excusing the poor home form and everyone agrees that he will need to raise the bar next season.

But when you say this was the most stable season we've had in 15 years, that's partly down to Gray in any case. Under Jones there was no real harmony and the fans were fed up with both owner and manager. Gray has kept us on an even keel

[Bob]

I stand buy my "mediocre" comment.

 

Results may be par or slightly above overall, but the home form and style of play has been very much below par. Fans want to see there team playing some attractive football and getting results at home. Not all of us get a chance or have the money to travel away. Home is where you are judged and we have not been anywhere near good enough both looking at results and the end product on the pitch.

[Bob]

Bloody spell check !!!!   "by" not "buy"

[oldishowl]

We started the season well and it was obvious we had a well coached team working very hard and a pretty consistent team selection.

We then started drawing too many at home and not scoring enough goals. Gray recognised we were lacking creativity and signed Mcgugan and Drenthe and once they were fit played them both, usually in a 4 man midfield. A very positive team selection

However we lost them both and while mcgugan came back the negativity set in .

We never replaced the flair of drenthe. No idea why as Gray obviously signed him for a reason.

We never signed a proven striker on loan despite all the talking that we were trying to.

I think the talk was just bull, takeover was being finalised and the wallet was locked.

The transfer window remains the biggest mystery of the season with Bus, Melo and Vermijl joining when two experienced loanees as memtioned might have seen us push for the playoffs. I would love to hear Gray explain what it was all about.

These 3 signings are a still a worry as it might be a taster for what is to come.

The worry is that Gray is a bit of an idealistic coach who thinks he can make a bunch of inexperienced young players into a good team when really what you need is hard nosed experienced players who know the division.

Edited May 1, 2015 by oldishowl

[shandypants]

I'm waiting for you to answer my post not side step it.

 

OK.  Which post? 

 

[Blue and white]

I stand buy my "mediocre" comment.

 

Results may be par or slightly above overall, but the home form and style of play has been very much below par. Fans want to see there team playing some attractive football and getting results at home. Not all of us get a chance or have the money to travel away. Home is where you are judged and we have not been anywhere near good enough both looking at results and the end product on the pitch.

The door to the cult is always open for people with such wisdom.

[Blue and white]

OK.  Which post?

The one you negated to answer.

You say he has had loads of managerial experience,such as.

[shandypants]

OK - I'm going to lay my cards on the table, and say it how it actually is without any bias from either side.

 

Gray, this season, has done a relatively good job. He has come in, and do some things very well - such as getting the players on side, setting the side up solidly making sure our weaknesses are avoided and strengths are taken advantage of with the players at our disposal. He's signed some good players, some the jury is still out on. There's no question he's popular in the club, he's a genuine guy and that is absolutely refreshing to see considering some of the people we've had in charge of the team over the last 10 years or so. I suspect every single person on this thread would be delighted if he was the guy to take us up, because, to spout a cliche, he's a 'proper' football man.

 

But that's not to say this season has been perfect, or even as good as people have made out. 

 

Firstly, this season has probably been financially, and emotionally, the most stable it has been since our relegation from the Premier League in my opinion. Yes, we haven't hit the heights of 9th like we did with Laws, but we also had an owner in Mandaric who is respectable and had the clubs best interests at heart, unlike back then. In effect, you could say this has been the easiest season since our relegation for any manager. There's been next to no backlash, no serious aggravation, the players have all got along, the club has been performing fairly well. Even considering our poor home form, it hasn't really been looked aggressively upon like it would have been in the past. This has been our Switzerland year, and it would probably have been more difficult for Gray not to have done well really. Next season will be different because there will be expectations, pressure, and the fans won't accept poor results. 

 

Next, moving on to that home form, it simply hasn't been good enough. You can make as many excuses up as you like about the pitch, the clean sheets, the poor strikers, the point still remains we were better at home in our relegation seasons than we were this year. There is absolutely no logical way to excuse it. Gray has said it's because of our style of play, which begs the question - why not change it and actually train for this style of play instead of insisting on a passing game that simply isn't suitable? It shocks a lack of tactical flexibility and a rigidity in opinion that could hinder the club if we're serious about promotion. We need to be flexible, we need to be able to adapt, not just persist with one style even if it doesn't work. We need Hillsborough to be the ground where we pick up points. You simply do not get promoted with home form like ours, and it needs sorting next year - no excuses.

 

Thirdly, the lack of goals full stop. I'm going to put this down to Gray realising quite early on in the season that staying tight and grinding out results suits this bunch of players. We do it well. Last season, if you all remember, we were pretty fluid, we attacked a lot and scored quite a few goals; but we also conceded quite a lot. Gray has struggled to find the balance this year in team set-up. You have to say that with better players, you suspect that Gray will be more adept at doing this, but the signings have raised one or two question marks in my eyes - they are all mainly defenders. 

 

This year we've signed Vermilj, Westwood, Lees, Dielna, Melo, Hutchinson... All fairly defensively minded players. Attacking options? McGugan, Bus, Keane and May - possibly Isgrove, but he seems more of an inside left than an actual wide player, providing a lot of defensive cover. It seems like Gray is determined not to strengthen the areas we actually need working on, take Vermilj, as an example of that.

 

People also seem to forget that, overall, we have 'apparently' (according to Gray in his interviews) made numerous bids and offers for loads of players on loan and permanently, usually in an attacking sense, but none of them have wanted to sign. Which again begs the question - why? It is very unusual.

 

My final criticism is that we are going to finish in 14th position. Not even top half. Which is concerning for such a great season which we're supposed to have had. Is it actually the case? Have we really been that good? Personally, I don't see it. We've had some remarkable success this year, the clean sheets, signing Westwood, our away form, arguably league position, the takeover... But also some very big doubts, mainly the home form and lack of goals. 

 

Stuff needs addressing, and it needs addressing soon. However, not drastic change needs doing, and that includes keeping Gray.

 

I can't disagree with that

 

No ones excusing the poor home form and everyone agrees that he will need to raise the bar next season.

But when you say this was the most stable season we've had in 15 years, that's partly down to Gray in any case. Under Jones there was no real harmony and the fans were fed up with both owner and manager. Gray has kept us on an even keel

 

or that

 

I stand buy my "mediocre" comment.

 

Results may be par or slightly above overall, but the home form and style of play has been very much below par. Fans want to see there team playing some attractive football and getting results at home. Not all of us get a chance or have the money to travel away. Home is where you are judged and we have not been anywhere near good enough both looking at results and the end product on the pitch.

 

or that. 

 

[Guest shakesby]

No ones excusing the poor home form and everyone agrees that he will need to raise the bar next season.

But when you say this was the most stable season we've had in 15 years, that's partly down to Gray in any case. Under Jones there was no real harmony and the fans were fed up with both owner and manager. Gray has kept us on an even keel

 

I strongly believe any manager who the fans didn't dislike would have been able to do the job Gray has done this year.