Settled Attack

[Pompeyowl]

We've scored more than one while Nuhiu's been on.

[Holmowl]

Just now, Dutch McLovin said:

Forestieri should be the mainstay of our attack he is that special player and many disagree but when he's up front and allowed to roam he is at is best rather than be restricted to the left IMO.

 

Then it's rotation between the other three for me. Fletcher being the obvious choice but there will be times when Joao and Nuhiu are required, Atty mainly from the bench.

 

This leaves Hooper as the odd man out. He for me doesn't fit into the way we play as he is a poor footballer but he does score goals. At the moment tho the 'man you want on the end of chances' is missing them and looks off the pace. I hope that is addressed in the international break.

 

Dutch.

 

Even though FF is a delight to watch, it's all about effectiveness.

 

Does none of the following make you question your opinion that FF should play up front?

 

1. He has scored one goal as dual striker since Nov 7th.

 

2. He scores very regularly from deeper/left.

 

3. The team scores considerably less than a goal per game with FF as striker.

 

4. The team scores almost 2 per game when he plays deeper/left.

 

5. We get far more points per game when he plays deeper/left.

 

None of the above are opinion. Purely the entire results and stats since Hooper played his first match for us, and FF started to be used in both roles. That's 30 odd games.

[IstillhateSteveBould]

1 hour ago, gurujuan said:

Can't see anything other than Fletcher as a lone striker, with Forestieri in a free role behind him. None of the other forwards will drop back into midfield when needed. Forestieri will do this, and that's important when you have a two man midfield.

 

This.

 

We look more solid as well as dangerous in attack with this partnership. It's a no brainer. Hooper upsets the balance. 

[StudentOwl]

As far as I'm concerned we've yet to play with a front two for more than about a quarter of a game all season, at least not a 'traditional' front two

If we're going to play Abdi, we effectively need to not play 4-4-2 anyway as it seems both Bannan and Lee are undroppable in Carlos' eyes (rightly or wrongly). At the end of the day, look at the undroppables and work from there:

Forestieri

Bannan

Lee

Fletcher

 

Those in themselves could play in a 4-4-2 with Baz and Lee in the middle and Forestieri on the left, but if you add the £4 million Abdi into the mix, you either stick him out wide to accommodate a 4-4-2, or you change shape to play him in his best position. It seems absolutely mad to buy a Premier League CAM and then play him out wide. Fully expect to see Forestieri in a free roll and then Bannan, Lee and Abdi in a midfield behind Fletcher. You simply cannot accommodate Abdi, Forestieri, Bannan and Lee in a 4-4-2 without having one or more of them playing sub-optimally. 

 

Need to get over this Hooper and Fletcher as a front two pairing, because it seems the undroppables mean this just isn't possible. 

[onslow]

On 22 August 2016 at 11:54, IstillhateSteveBould said:

Without Fletcher's injury and Forestieri-gate, those 2 would've been our settled attack. 

 

Can't help but think of shades of the dream team Hirst/Warhurst frontline scenario that quickly fell apart for many reasons and ended up with Warhurst legging it for Blackburn.....

[Dutch McLovin]

25 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

Dutch.

 

Even though FF is a delight to watch, it's all about effectiveness.

 

Does none of the following make you question your opinion that FF should play up front?

 

1. He has scored one goal as dual striker since Nov 7th.

 

2. He scores very regularly from deeper/left.

 

3. The team scores considerably less than a goal per game with FF as striker.

 

4. The team scores almost 2 per game when he plays deeper/left.

 

5. We get far more points per game when he plays deeper/left.

 

None of the above are opinion. Purely the entire results and stats since Hooper played his first match for us, and FF started to be used in both roles. That's 30 odd games.

I've seen the stats but how many of these are when he has started out in the left ???

 

I believe later in games when we're going for it this is an option as he doesn't need to worry so much about going backwards and that's where he gets his success.

 

But to me you start your best players in there best positions. And then later in games you see the just rewards for that. FF is our best player. He is key to most of the good things we do. He can affect the game more playing up top. 

 

In the Abdi debate he should play in CM with Lee in my opinion. 

[Holmowl]

5 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

As far as I'm concerned we've yet to play with a front two for more than about a quarter of a game all season, at least not a 'traditional' front two

If we're going to play Abdi, we effectively need to not play 4-4-2 anyway as it seems both Bannan and Lee are undroppable in Carlos' eyes (rightly or wrongly). At the end of the day, look at the undroppables and work from there:

Forestieri

Bannan

Lee

Fletcher

 

Those in themselves could play in a 4-4-2 with Baz and Lee in the middle and Forestieri on the left, but if you add the £4 million Abdi into the mix, you either stick him out wide to accommodate a 4-4-2, or you change shape to play him in his best position. It seems absolutely mad to buy a Premier League CAM and then play him out wide. Fully expect to see Forestieri in a free roll and then Bannan, Lee and Abdi in a midfield behind Fletcher. You simply cannot accommodate Abdi, Forestieri, Bannan and Lee in a 4-4-2 without having one or more of them playing sub-optimally. 

 

Need to get over this Hooper and Fletcher as a front two pairing, because it seems the undroppables mean this just isn't possible. 

 

Unless you you hold the view, as I do, that their is another undropable.

 

Many would say that our only 20/25 goal striker is on the undropable list.

[StudentOwl]

1 minute ago, Holmowl said:

 

Unless you you hold the view, as I do, that their is another undropable.

 

Many would say that our only 20/25 goal striker is on the undropable list.

I said Carlos' undroppables, not my undroppables

The fact he's only started two games this season tells me Carlos doesn't think he's the answer as you do. 

[StudentOwl]

3 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

Unless you you hold the view, as I do, that their is another undropable.

 

Many would say that our only 20/25 goal striker is on the undropable list.

And even if you decide Hooper is undroppable, as you clearly do (To a borderline unhealthy level), OK, let's work on that premise:

Fletcher-----Hooper

Up front 

 

How does everyone else fit into a 4-4-2. Forestieri on left, who are the midfield two? Who's wide right? You have to fit Bannan, Lee and Abdi into that team... Bannan and Lee because they're undroppable as far as Carlos is concerned, Abdi because he's class. The answer is it doesn't work. Something has to give. Either Carlos needs to drop Bannan and/or Lee, or Hooper needs to be dropped.

If it's down to that type of choice, I'd leave the tubster on the bench

[Holmowl]

4 minutes ago, Dutch McLovin said:

I've seen the stats but how many of these are when he has started out in the left ???

 

I believe later in games when we're going for it this is an option as he doesn't need to worry so much about going backwards and that's where he gets his success.

 

But to me you start your best players in there best positions. And then later in games you see the just rewards for that. FF is our best player. He is key to most of the good things we do. He can affect the game more playing up top. 

 

In the Abdi debate he should play in CM with Lee in my opinion. 

 

I 100% agree with you he is our best player. (not counting keeper or defence)

 

But I 100% disagree that he affects the game most up front. He really doesn't. He doesn't score and the team doesn't score. This is nothing to do with opinion. Look at the matches and time he is up front...he cannot score and the team barely scores. It a remarkable contrast to how effective he and the team are when he is deeper.He Gets more ball, he scores more goals, the team scores more goals, we gain more points.

 

 

[Holmowl]

30 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

And even if you decide Hooper is undroppable, as you clearly do (To a borderline unhealthy level), OK, let's work on that premise:

Fletcher-----Hooper

Up front 

 

How does everyone else fit into a 4-4-2. Forestieri on left, who are the midfield two? Who's wide right? You have to fit Bannan, Lee and Abdi into that team... Bannan and Lee because they're undroppable as far as Carlos is concerned, Abdi because he's class. The answer is it doesn't work. Something has to give. Either Carlos needs to drop Bannan and/or Lee, or Hooper needs to be dropped.

If it's down to that type of choice, I'd leave the tubster on the bench

And if it was me, I would leave out whichever of Bannan, Lee and Abdi is not on top form, and play Wallace or Buckley right.

 

These tubster players like Hooper, McCormack, Gerd Muller, Micky Quinn, Higuain, Rooney, Lampard, goofy Ronaldo, Francis Lee......what is it that managers see in them eh?

[dorian gray]

8 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

And if it was me, I would leave out whichever of Bannan, Lee and Abdi is not on top form, and play Wallace or Buckley right.

 

These tubster players like Hooper, McCormack, Gerd Muller, Micky Quinn, Higuain, Rooney, Lampard, goofy Ronaldo, Francis Lee......what is it that managers see in them eh?

lets be fair, hooper don't look fit to do the job he's supposed to be doin'...

he turned up on loan last year lookin' 'unfit' (we'll call it)...

i thought it was norwich's fault for taking their eye off a player they didn't need...

then start of new season with us, he turns up lookin' 'unfit for the job at it's best'...

is his agent gettin' him contracts with 4 weeks more holidays than anyone else?

[IstillhateSteveBould]

Holmowl just doesn't get it and never will

[StudentOwl]

59 minutes ago, dnhc said:

lets be fair, hooper don't look fit to do the job he's supposed to be doin'...

he turned up on loan last year lookin' 'unfit' (we'll call it)...

i thought it was norwich's fault for taking their eye off a player they didn't need...

then start of new season with us, he turns up lookin' 'unfit for the job at it's best'...

is his agent gettin' him contracts with 4 weeks more holidays than anyone else?

I got so much stick last season for suggesting that Hooper was just a naturally unfit player  

I think part of it was I made the mistake of daring to mention the Football Manager games... I said he had a low 'natural fitness' on there which implies, at least, he seems to have a problem with staying in shape... oh how the negs fell from the heavens and the ridicule came.

Turns out I was right. Again. 

Back to something that actually matters though, it is somewhat surprising just how much off the pace he got in the space of a couple of months, and even more surprising that he's still not back up to match fitness despite the fact we're nearly two months into a new season. At least Fat Frank could get into shape in time for the first game of the season and he only really got more rotund post 30... Hooper should be fit as a fiddle and instead he comes out looking like one of the tweedles from Alice in Wonderland

 

 

[spike1867]

43 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I got so much stick last season for suggesting that Hooper was just a naturally unfit player  

I think part of it was I made the mistake of daring to mention the Football Manager games... I said he had a low 'natural fitness' on there which implies, at least, he seems to have a problem with staying in shape... oh how the negs fell from the heavens and the ridicule came.

Turns out I was right. Again. 

Back to something that actually matters though, it is somewhat surprising just how much off the pace he got in the space of a couple of months, and even more surprising that he's still not back up to match fitness despite the fact we're nearly two months into a new season. At least Fat Frank could get into shape in time for the first game of the season and he only really got more rotund post 30... Hooper should be fit as a fiddle and instead he comes out looking like one of the tweedles from Alice in Wonderland

 

 

 

I have to agree.  What is more puzzling is that it does not say a massive amount for us as a club.  If Hooper does indeed have a fitness issue, in terms of weight control etc., then should we as a club not have been on top of that over the summer.  Aren't a lot of players given weight and fitness targets to meet over the summer and face fines etc if they do not meet them.  I remember a very long time ago speaking to Mel Sterland during close season and he said this was par for the course and that was around 1986/7.  As you have pointed out, he does not seem to have improved on that since July 4th or whatever date it was the players returned for pre-season training.  Has he been asked to gain some weight? I suppose its not inconceivable, but highly unlikely.  

 

Regardless of the weight issue, if indeed there is one, I still do not think he offers enough in general play. Outside of his undoubted goal scoring instincts, there is no other threat.  No genuine pace, ability in the air, hold up, set piece or dribbling ability.  Holmowl, you mentioned all those "tubby" players, well all bar maybe one, they had/have other strings to their bows.  I'm not saying Rhodes is the answer, I think he could suffer from the same limitations as Hooper.  I thought McCormack was a better option, he offered genuine set piece ability as well as  ability as a second striker but in the end I had to agree with the majority that he was overpriced.  

 

I think Hooper would benefit hugely from playing with a standard get to the byeline wide man who gets balls across the box etc, whereby he knows what is coming.  I can't help think that there is some element of FF's play that is slightly off the cuff and makes it difficult to know where to be.  He also seems to link up well with intelligent play.  I wonder whether he would be better off with Abdi as his no. 10, feeding off him.

 

 

[Holmowl]

1 hour ago, StudentOwl said:

I got so much stick last season for suggesting that Hooper was just a naturally unfit player  

I think part of it was I made the mistake of daring to mention the Football Manager games... I said he had a low 'natural fitness' on there which implies, at least, he seems to have a problem with staying in shape... oh how the negs fell from the heavens and the ridicule came.

Turns out I was right. Again. 

Back to something that actually matters though, it is somewhat surprising just how much off the pace he got in the space of a couple of months, and even more surprising that he's still not back up to match fitness despite the fact we're nearly two months into a new season. At least Fat Frank could get into shape in time for the first game of the season and he only really got more rotund post 30... Hooper should be fit as a fiddle and instead he comes out looking like one of the tweedles from Alice in Wonderland

 

 

 

Do the type of attributes matter spike?

 

Does it matter if the goals are headed, left foot or right foot, individual or teamwork etc?

 

If McCormack scores 15 from free play, and 5 free kicks, it is no more or less valuable than Hoopers 20 from free play. 

 

As I posted last week a Huddersfield pal of mine said Rhodes has nothing in his game, apart from he knows where the goal is. That's a pretty special and vital talent, and one that we lack.

[spike1867]

11 minutes ago, Holmowl said:

 

Do the type of attributes matter spike?

 

Does it matter if the goals are headed, left foot or right foot, individual or teamwork etc?

 

If McCormack scores 15 from free play, and 5 free kicks, it is no more or less valuable than Hoopers 20 from free play. 

 

As I posted last week a Huddersfield pal of mine said Rhodes has nothing in his game, apart from he knows where the goal is. That's a pretty special and vital talent, and one that we lack.

 

I think it does mate, because on those days when you aren't getting the chances, would it not be better to be a threat and therefore creating space and opportunity for others?  Hooper hasn't scored 20 yet, so I think until he does, he has to prove he's that man.  Comparing McCormack and Hooper with how they score the goals is incidental.  McCormacks 5 set pieces could have come in games where Villa are not dominating, goals from nothing that otherwise they would not have scored.  Hooper relies on the team performance to be good to create his goals.  I agree, knowing where the goal is, is a vital and underestimated talent.  As a kid I remember my next door neighbour was a die hard Spurs fan.  He came to Hillsborough to watch us v Spurs and I asked him whether Lineker was a better striker than Clive Allen had been for them........"everyday of the week and twice on Sundays, because Lineker is always a threat over 15 yards whether Spurs play well or not".  Its the best analogy I can think of, Hooper and Rhodes are players of that ilk, but the reason they have not progressed to consistent PL players is, for me, because they do not offer enough outside of that goalscoring ability.

 

He needs the right partner, I'm just not sure if either FF or SF are the right ones.  

[coopswfc76]

What's not to get, personal opinion is -

 

Westwood 

Palmer or hunt/any 2 from 3/Pudil.

Lee/Jones 

Bannan/Abdi/Fessi 

Fletcher

 

Only way I can see us getting best players on the pitch.

 

 

 

 

[Bigger Guns]

For me, abdi has to play central and forestieri has to play left. I also prefer bannan in an attacking position rather than deep. So it's obvious.

 

            Fletcher

Fessi     Abdi      Bannan

       Jones    Lee

 

 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Bigger Guns

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

55 minutes ago, Bigger Guns said:

For me, abdi has to play central and forestieri has to play left. I also prefer bannan in an attacking position rather than deep. So it's obvious.

 

            Fletcher

Fessi     Abdi      Bannan

       Jones    Lee

 

 

 

I initially plussed this, then realised you'd already plussed your own post!