Aboard the Blue & White Time Machine

[Eckstein11]

This post is not a defence of Darren Moore but more a look at how times have changed.

 

To any fan of my age, the mention of Jack Charlton is enough to make you go misty eyed.  It was October 77 when he watched the Chesterfield game from the North Stand and decided to take over at 24th placed 3rd Division Sheffield Wednesday who, at the time, had been out of Division One for 7 years.  It was such a coup to get him, and he goes down as one of our great managers.  I thought I'd jump in to my Blue & White Time Machine to take a brief look back at that period from October 77 to May 80 when we won promotion.

 

He took over a team which had finished 8th the previous season under Len Ashurst so to be bottom without a win until that Chesterfield game wasn't expected.  Looking at Jack's first ten league games takes us to Boxing Day 77 when we lost 1-0 at Tranmere and were still bottom.  Jack's record reads W2 D2 L6, so not much of a new manager bounce to start with.  We also got knocked out 1-0 by non-league Wigan in the 2nd round of the Cup.  Then something clicks, we only lose 3 more that season and finish a comfortable 14th.  Jack's record reads W14 D11 L10.  We win 10 of those games by the odd goal.

 

1978-79, our record after drawing at Chesterfield on Boxing Day is W5 D10 L6.  We are 16th, harder to beat but not easy to watch.  That winter is awful.  We only play one league game between Boxing Day and mid February and lose at Plymouth.  What we do have is the Arsenal Cup marathon where we grab the nation's attention by somehow managing to play above ourselves in taking the eventual Cup Winners to 5 games.  Despite what we are being served up in the League, we keep the faith.  A 2-1 home win over Gillingham in front of 8205 (ok not everyone kept the faith) moves us up to 18th.  3 wins from the last 4 games sees us finish 14th again.  W13 D19 L14.  What we do achieve is the signing of Terry Curran in March but we don't look nailed on Promotion Candidates for the following year.

 

1979-80.  Big Jack has decided after almost 3 years that it is going to take a big goalkeeper, a big centre half and a big centre forward to get us out of Division 3.  Nobody is arguing over Mike Pickering or Andy Mculloch, but Bob Bolder is contentious, particularly taking over from Chris Turner who was a fans favourite.  On the Saturday of August Bank Holiday weekend we lose 3-0 at home to Blackburn and Bolder has a nightmare.  Big Jack drops him in favour of another young keeper Brian Cox.  After 12 games we are 5th.  W4 D5 L3 which would have given us 17 points (so 2 less than we have at the same stage now).  We have a bad November (by which time Bolder is back) and a 1-0 home defeat to Exeter leaves us 8th while the other side of the city are top.  We seem in particular to have a complex playing at Hillsborough.

 

We then of course have Boxing Day followed by a 1-0 home defeat to Plymouth.  We start February in 8th place and then from somewhere we find form.  8 wins out of 9, 16 unbeaten until we lose at Bury.  With Chesterfield breathing down our necks we have that terrific night at Blackburn and then even though we lose at Exeter we're up.

 

It was never a given in those 3 years that we were going up.  We were often tough and dour until we had the flash of brilliance from a T.C. or a Brian Hornsby.  Yes, we were Sheffield Wednesday in the 3rd division and only 7 years (not 21) out of the top, but we nobody handed us anything.

 

Jack just got on and managed.  There were so many times, so many performances when you could have questioned him.  But he was World Cup winning Jack, he'd won it all as a player and had a great track record as a Manager with Middlesborough (a bit like Pulis had a track record until he joined us).  He'd been on Parkinson and talked about his little black book.  If you didn't like his methods or his style then bugger you.  You had no Owlstalk, no Twitter, no Praise or Grumble... you paid your money and hurled your cushion.  You didn't dissect how articulate he was in pre or post match interviews because you didn't hear them.  If Bert Mcgee had have annoyed him or he felt the fans were no longer with him he could have walked out to catch salmon or shoot grouse.

 

That win at Blackburn in 1980, a slight tug on Drew Talbot's shirt in 2005, an Antonio injury time winner against Carlisle in 2012.... so much of what we have achieved over the years is fine margins.

 

I have no idea if Darren Moore will succeed.  We could sack him tomorrow and roll the dice again, keep on rolling the dice forever.  21 years away from the big time is way too long.  I just can't help thinking whoever does succeeed will take a few more years to sort it out.  Big Jack did.

[onlyonedavidhirst]

That brought back some memories. From Curran's debut at Watford to Antonio then Wycombe. Good point re fine margins, though I would love us one year to make going up easy and feel like we are the best in the league. I've never seen us go up as Champions, though we weren't far away under Atkinson

[4evaowl]

2 hours ago, Eckstein11 said:

This post is not a defence of Darren Moore but more a look at how times have changed.

 

To any fan of my age, the mention of Jack Charlton is enough to make you go misty eyed.  It was October 77 when he watched the Chesterfield game from the North Stand and decided to take over at 24th placed 3rd Division Sheffield Wednesday who, at the time, had been out of Division One for 7 years.  It was such a coup to get him, and he goes down as one of our great managers.  I thought I'd jump in to my Blue & White Time Machine to take a brief look back at that period from October 77 to May 80 when we won promotion.

 

He took over a team which had finished 8th the previous season under Len Ashurst so to be bottom without a win until that Chesterfield game wasn't expected.  Looking at Jack's first ten league games takes us to Boxing Day 77 when we lost 1-0 at Tranmere and were still bottom.  Jack's record reads W2 D2 L6, so not much of a new manager bounce to start with.  We also got knocked out 1-0 by non-league Wigan in the 2nd round of the Cup.  Then something clicks, we only lose 3 more that season and finish a comfortable 14th.  Jack's record reads W14 D11 L10.  We win 10 of those games by the odd goal.

 

1978-79, our record after drawing at Chesterfield on Boxing Day is W5 D10 L6.  We are 16th, harder to beat but not easy to watch.  That winter is awful.  We only play one league game between Boxing Day and mid February and lose at Plymouth.  What we do have is the Arsenal Cup marathon where we grab the nation's attention by somehow managing to play above ourselves in taking the eventual Cup Winners to 5 games.  Despite what we are being served up in the League, we keep the faith.  A 2-1 home win over Gillingham in front of 8205 (ok not everyone kept the faith) moves us up to 18th.  3 wins from the last 4 games sees us finish 14th again.  W13 D19 L14.  What we do achieve is the signing of Terry Curran in March but we don't look nailed on Promotion Candidates for the following year.

 

1979-80.  Big Jack has decided after almost 3 years that it is going to take a big goalkeeper, a big centre half and a big centre forward to get us out of Division 3.  Nobody is arguing over Mike Pickering or Andy Mculloch, but Bob Bolder is contentious, particularly taking over from Chris Turner who was a fans favourite.  On the Saturday of August Bank Holiday weekend we lose 3-0 at home to Blackburn and Bolder has a nightmare.  Big Jack drops him in favour of another young keeper Brian Cox.  After 12 games we are 5th.  W4 D5 L3 which would have given us 17 points (so 2 less than we have at the same stage now).  We have a bad November (by which time Bolder is back) and a 1-0 home defeat to Exeter leaves us 8th while the other side of the city are top.  We seem in particular to have a complex playing at Hillsborough.

 

We then of course have Boxing Day followed by a 1-0 home defeat to Plymouth.  We start February in 8th place and then from somewhere we find form.  8 wins out of 9, 16 unbeaten until we lose at Bury.  With Chesterfield breathing down our necks we have that terrific night at Blackburn and then even though we lose at Exeter we're up.

 

It was never a given in those 3 years that we were going up.  We were often tough and dour until we had the flash of brilliance from a T.C. or a Brian Hornsby.  Yes, we were Sheffield Wednesday in the 3rd division and only 7 years (not 21) out of the top, but we nobody handed us anything.

 

Jack just got on and managed.  There were so many times, so many performances when you could have questioned him.  But he was World Cup winning Jack, he'd won it all as a player and had a great track record as a Manager with Middlesborough (a bit like Pulis had a track record until he joined us).  He'd been on Parkinson and talked about his little black book.  If you didn't like his methods or his style then bugger you.  You had no Owlstalk, no Twitter, no Praise or Grumble... you paid your money and hurled your cushion.  You didn't dissect how articulate he was in pre or post match interviews because you didn't hear them.  If Bert Mcgee had have annoyed him or he felt the fans were no longer with him he could have walked out to catch salmon or shoot grouse.

 

That win at Blackburn in 1980, a slight tug on Drew Talbot's shirt in 2005, an Antonio injury time winner against Carlisle in 2012.... so much of what we have achieved over the years is fine margins.

 

I have no idea if Darren Moore will succeed.  We could sack him tomorrow and roll the dice again, keep on rolling the dice forever.  21 years away from the big time is way too long.  I just can't help thinking whoever does succeeed will take a few more years to sort it out.  Big Jack did.

Great Post.

Every team gave managers much, much longer back then. Alex Ferguson was the prime example - no way he'd be given the time nowadays.

 

There were some dreadful games at Hillsborough in the 1970s with very low crowds, and more than a few under Jack Charlton, but I can't recall anyone calling for his head. His track record was so outstanding that we knew he'd get it right eventually.

 

With DM it's a leap of faith because he doesn't have the track record of success that JC had. He doesn't convince me but unless there is a credible alternative, we have to stick with him whilst we remain  in touch with the play offs.

[Owlsbury]

Excellent read.. thank you 

[Basement Jack]

Brilliant post mate 

Thanks for taking the time to write it

It’s sometimes mentioned that we look back on times with rose tinted glasses but I don’t accept it with this era

True the football wasn’t free flowing in fact it was difficult to watch at first

Big Jack stated in an interview some years later “ it took me time to figure it out” But figure it out he did

The guy was so down to earth but yet a HUGE character. Saying it how it was , talking to fans in the local pubs, he had the respect of everyone , Choosing Wednesday bottom of the 3rd when he had just walked out on Middlesbrough after doing a brilliant job he could have taken his pick of jobs.

 

Football from a different era? Yes

But boy I wish it was back

There’s no characters in the game anymore

Clipboard managers who talk a good un but are weak and hamstrung by contracts ( oh Jack didn’t bother with those by the way). Charltons sheer presence got us out of the mess we were in. 

 

We may have achieved more under Atkinson and Wilkinson . But nobody put their reputation on the line for Wednesday more than Big Jack

 

We all have opinions but in my lifetime Jack Charlton, everything considered, is Wednesdays greatest manager

[Musn't Grumble]

2 hours ago, Eckstein11 said:

This post is not a defence of Darren Moore but more a look at how times have changed.

 

To any fan of my age, the mention of Jack Charlton is enough to make you go misty eyed.  It was October 77 when he watched the Chesterfield game from the North Stand and decided to take over at 24th placed 3rd Division Sheffield Wednesday who, at the time, had been out of Division One for 7 years.  It was such a coup to get him, and he goes down as one of our great managers.  I thought I'd jump in to my Blue & White Time Machine to take a brief look back at that period from October 77 to May 80 when we won promotion.

 

He took over a team which had finished 8th the previous season under Len Ashurst so to be bottom without a win until that Chesterfield game wasn't expected.  Looking at Jack's first ten league games takes us to Boxing Day 77 when we lost 1-0 at Tranmere and were still bottom.  Jack's record reads W2 D2 L6, so not much of a new manager bounce to start with.  We also got knocked out 1-0 by non-league Wigan in the 2nd round of the Cup.  Then something clicks, we only lose 3 more that season and finish a comfortable 14th.  Jack's record reads W14 D11 L10.  We win 10 of those games by the odd goal.

 

1978-79, our record after drawing at Chesterfield on Boxing Day is W5 D10 L6.  We are 16th, harder to beat but not easy to watch.  That winter is awful.  We only play one league game between Boxing Day and mid February and lose at Plymouth.  What we do have is the Arsenal Cup marathon where we grab the nation's attention by somehow managing to play above ourselves in taking the eventual Cup Winners to 5 games.  Despite what we are being served up in the League, we keep the faith.  A 2-1 home win over Gillingham in front of 8205 (ok not everyone kept the faith) moves us up to 18th.  3 wins from the last 4 games sees us finish 14th again.  W13 D19 L14.  What we do achieve is the signing of Terry Curran in March but we don't look nailed on Promotion Candidates for the following year.

 

1979-80.  Big Jack has decided after almost 3 years that it is going to take a big goalkeeper, a big centre half and a big centre forward to get us out of Division 3.  Nobody is arguing over Mike Pickering or Andy Mculloch, but Bob Bolder is contentious, particularly taking over from Chris Turner who was a fans favourite.  On the Saturday of August Bank Holiday weekend we lose 3-0 at home to Blackburn and Bolder has a nightmare.  Big Jack drops him in favour of another young keeper Brian Cox.  After 12 games we are 5th.  W4 D5 L3 which would have given us 17 points (so 2 less than we have at the same stage now).  We have a bad November (by which time Bolder is back) and a 1-0 home defeat to Exeter leaves us 8th while the other side of the city are top.  We seem in particular to have a complex playing at Hillsborough.

 

We then of course have Boxing Day followed by a 1-0 home defeat to Plymouth.  We start February in 8th place and then from somewhere we find form.  8 wins out of 9, 16 unbeaten until we lose at Bury.  With Chesterfield breathing down our necks we have that terrific night at Blackburn and then even though we lose at Exeter we're up.

 

It was never a given in those 3 years that we were going up.  We were often tough and dour until we had the flash of brilliance from a T.C. or a Brian Hornsby.  Yes, we were Sheffield Wednesday in the 3rd division and only 7 years (not 21) out of the top, but we nobody handed us anything.

 

Jack just got on and managed.  There were so many times, so many performances when you could have questioned him.  But he was World Cup winning Jack, he'd won it all as a player and had a great track record as a Manager with Middlesborough (a bit like Pulis had a track record until he joined us).  He'd been on Parkinson and talked about his little black book.  If you didn't like his methods or his style then bugger you.  You had no Owlstalk, no Twitter, no Praise or Grumble... you paid your money and hurled your cushion.  You didn't dissect how articulate he was in pre or post match interviews because you didn't hear them.  If Bert Mcgee had have annoyed him or he felt the fans were no longer with him he could have walked out to catch salmon or shoot grouse.

 

That win at Blackburn in 1980, a slight tug on Drew Talbot's shirt in 2005, an Antonio injury time winner against Carlisle in 2012.... so much of what we have achieved over the years is fine margins.

 

I have no idea if Darren Moore will succeed.  We could sack him tomorrow and roll the dice again, keep on rolling the dice forever.  21 years away from the big time is way too long.  I just can't help thinking whoever does succeeed will take a few more years to sort it out.  Big Jack did.

 

 

I would wholly agree with you regarding fine margins in any sport and I hope that, in comparing Big Jack's baptism as SWFC manager to Darren Moore, you are bang on with the same outcome..

 

It was touch and go with Big Jack at first but, once that awful 77/78 season was out of the way, Charlton's signings delivered in bucket loads.

 

Brian Hornsby, Jeff King, Dennis Leman, Ian Mellor, Ray Blackhall... in addition to the stalwarts, Pickering, McCulloch, Curran and Bolder whom you mentioned, really solidified the squad. Of the players already in the squad when he took over, Charlton turned the likes of Leman and Johnson virtually into new signings.

 

I was at that FA Cup game at Wigan in November 1977 and the side that won on that memorable night at Blackburn a couple of seasons later was light years ahead, not only in terms of skill and fitness but also in terms of application, determination and tactical awareness.

 

It was to Big Jack's credit that, by the time he left, he had already built the foundations for a return to the top tier, something that was unthinkable in those dark days just a few years earlier.

 

[Freshfish]

Excellent read. I know times have changed but what Big Jack did was play to the strengths of the players he signed and created a work ethic and loyalty that the fans bought into also. 
 

If DM can learn simple lessons from that it is to disregard the concept of playing 'Championship/Premier League football, find a system that the players are comfortable with and play to their strengths. Know the opposition but stamp our mark on games. 
 

[The Hoppy Hopper]

Brilliant post , thank you for that.

[Busmansholiday]

4 hours ago, Eckstein11 said:

... you paid your money and hurled your cushion.  

Those were the days in the South Stand, especially when the PA came on asking you Not to throw them. 

Remember hurling mine in the 4-0 home defeat to Villa in the 74-75 season.

[Hoofit]

Brilliant post! Remember those times fondly, if sometimes through blue & white tinted specs….

I wonder if Jack would have survived his first season had there been the internet, sky tv, premier league & the clamour for instant success that these drive?

[steelerian]

7 hours ago, Freshfish said:

Excellent read. I know times have changed but what Big Jack did was play to the strengths of the players he signed and created a work ethic and loyalty that the fans bought into also. 
 

If DM can learn simple lessons from that it is to disregard the concept of playing 'Championship/Premier League football, find a system that the players are comfortable with and play to their strengths. Know the opposition but stamp our mark on games. 
 

 

 

THIS

 

DM should just sign a bunch of big lads and let us just go out and boss games. The fans would absolutely lap it up.