U23s v Forest (a)

[Jim]

3 hours ago, gurujuan said:

I think you will see a lot of UK based youngsters playing on the continent, which goes to show the progress we have made in this country There has been a massive change with the way clubs do things in recent years, with more emphasis put on ball work. Young British players are now comfortable on the ball, not something you could say 10 years ago. That’s one of the reasons I’m so against the appointment of managers like Monk and Pulis. Pulis might well get us organised enough to steer our way clear of relegation in the short term. In the longer term though, that style of football will set us back years

 

Pulis has been brought in to first and foremost save us from relegation and then to put some foundations in place to build on. He may be manager for a short period of time, he may not be? But he’s been brought in to build the club and raise standards and I think given time he will.

[morganowl]

17 hours ago, gurujuan said:

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is a big concern for me. These two recent appointments though, will not be good for our young players development, in my opinion anyway

teaching players at a young age to play that style isnt good without a doubt

[ZicoSterland2]

16 hours ago, gurujuan said:

I think you will see a lot of UK based youngsters playing on the continent, which goes to show the progress we have made in this country There has been a massive change with the way clubs do things in recent years, with more emphasis put on ball work. Young British players are now comfortable on the ball, not something you could say 10 years ago. That’s one of the reasons I’m so against the appointment of managers like Monk and Pulis. Pulis might well get us organised enough to steer our way clear of relegation in the short term. In the longer term though, that style of football will set us back years

Set us back years from what ? Bottom of the championship,  up to our eyes in debt, a team with little or no assets to sell. Pulis is a good appointment , it would be a financial disaster if we were relegated and he gives us a very good chance of avoiding it. This club has been going backwards for 25 years so I wouldn't say appointing Pulis will set us back. As for style of play tell me when we last had one ? 

[Dutch McLovin]

18 hours ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

Y' know,  I'd love to see Alex Hunt get a good run in our 1st team

But not alongside Barry Bannan.  He'd need to play INSTEAD of Bannan

And I honestly can't see that happening right now,  especially given our current predicament

 

Liam Shaw might be better placed to step up,  probably thanks to his size and versatility

I'd also have picked Conor Grant as 'the one to watch' but maybe fitness has counted against him?  Dunno

Said this before regarding Hunt, its criminal he was not sent on loan in the summer. Bannan is our captain, rarely injured and generally plays well. Hunt was never gonna get enough game time here. Lets hope its rectified in January to help his progression.

 

Liam Shaw will get game time under Pulis as has already shown. Dont think it will happen but id love to see Penney given a run at LB i think he'd be a success. 

 

With regards to whether the others can make it who knows but without giving them a go you never know. Always go back to the Tommy Spurr example, told to look for another opportunity as he was not getting his contract renewed wothout playing a first team game, we get an injury crisis at first team level and were forced to play him... he does well earns himself a contract and goes on to play his whole career at championship level. Without that crisis he could have drifted out of the game.

 

You never know if you dont give them a go.

[gurujuan]

1 hour ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

Set us back years from what ? Bottom of the championship,  up to our eyes in debt, a team with little or no assets to sell. Pulis is a good appointment , it would be a financial disaster if we were relegated and he gives us a very good chance of avoiding it. This club has been going backwards for 25 years so I wouldn't say appointing Pulis will set us back. As for style of play tell me when we last had one ? 

Not sure about that. After a barren spell, where the academy has been neglected, we have started to produce good footballers. Up until this year, most people who watch them, would say the academy sides play good progressive football, and they are starting to produce players capable of a place in the first team squad. Speaking to people, it appears that progress stalled when Monk got more involved. 
My worry is that it will be more of the same under Pulis

[Ethel The Tree]

20 minutes ago, Dutch McLovin said:

Said this before regarding Hunt, its criminal he was not sent on loan in the summer.

 

Regarding loans out,  I think clubs have to enquire about availability before a move is considered - could be wrong

 

Hunt is a part of our current 1st team squad,  there is no denying that,  so maybe he wasn't available?

He's been named in 12 of our seventeen matchday squads so far

Unfortunately,  that's only amounted to 45mins of Championship action

... which is why I'd play him in the U23 fixtures,  even if it's only for an hour or so

 

Same applies with Dele-Bashiru.   He's figured in EVERY senior matchday squad

But has only clocked up about 220mins of league action

Can't say I've been that impressed with what I've seen,  but maybe some U23 games would sharpen him up a bit

[Ethel The Tree]

37 minutes ago, gurujuan said:

Not sure about that. After a barren spell, where the academy has been neglected, we have started to produce good footballers. Up until this year, most people who watch them, would say the academy sides play good progressive football, and they are starting to produce players capable of a place in the first team squad. Speaking to people, it appears that progress stalled when Monk got more involved. 
My worry is that it will be more of the same under Pulis

 

I'm guessing,  but I'd have thought Steve Haslam would have more influence as Academy Manager

 

He was appointed to the role when Carlos was here and has seen four full-time managers turn up since

Would he also be the one to recruit youth coaches and arrange for loans out etc?

 

I can imagine Monk or Pulis having a say in how the U23s set up

But I'd have thought player development would strictly fall within Steve's remit

[gurujuan]

13 minutes ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

I'm guessing,  but I'd have thought Steve Haslam would have more influence as Academy Manager

 

He was appointed to the role when Carlos was here and has seen four full-time managers turn up since

Would he also be the one to recruit youth coaches and arrange for loans out etc?

 

I can imagine Monk or Pulis having a say in how the U23s set up

But I'd have thought player development would strictly fall within Steve's remit

Yes Haslam has overseen the U23s, but from the season’s start Monk very definitely influenced the way the academy sides played. That much was noticeable from the way we set up in games. From what I gather, a lot of the players were not happy about the new ideas and spoke to the staff about it 

I’m not saying Monk took these players for training, but he definitely tried to get them to replicate the style he had implemented with the first team A style that did not work for the firsts, nor by all accounts, for the academy sides.

Edited December 2, 2020 by gurujuan

[Dutch McLovin]

23 minutes ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

Regarding loans out,  I think clubs have to enquire about availability before a move is considered - could be wrong

 

Hunt is a part of our current 1st team squad,  there is no denying that,  so maybe he wasn't available?

He's been named in 12 of our seventeen matchday squads so far

Unfortunately,  that's only amounted to 45mins of Championship action

... which is why I'd play him in the U23 fixtures,  even if it's only for an hour or so

 

Same applies with Dele-Bashiru.   He's figured in EVERY senior matchday squad

But has only clocked up about 220mins of league action

Can't say I've been that impressed with what I've seen,  but maybe some U23 games would sharpen him up a bit

Agree its not enough game time and yes they need to play in the under 23 games.

 

What im saying regaring Hunt whether he was available or not he should have been and we should have been trying to find a club to take him. He needs game time and was  never going to get any. Think more was expected from Dele myself he hasnt shown much so far but should be playing in the under 23's.

[gurujuan]

2 minutes ago, Dutch McLovin said:

Agree its not enough game time and yes they need to play in the under 23 games.

 

What im saying regaring Hunt whether he was available or not he should have been and we should have been trying to find a club to take him. He needs game time and was  never going to get any. Think more was expected from Dele myself he hasnt shown much so far but should be playing in the under 23's.

Probably our situation at the bottom of the table has made it difficult for these players. Were we not up against it, I could imagine Hunt being introduced for Bannan towards the end of games, gradually building his game time up, until he was ready to start the odd game. Sadly we haven’t been able to do that, because of our precarious position

[ZicoSterland2]

2 hours ago, gurujuan said:

Not sure about that. After a barren spell, where the academy has been neglected, we have started to produce good footballers. Up until this year, most people who watch them, would say the academy sides play good progressive football, and they are starting to produce players capable of a place in the first team squad. Speaking to people, it appears that progress stalled when Monk got more involved. 
My worry is that it will be more of the same under Pulis

How many of the u18-u23s have progressed into the first team on a regular basis in the last 25 years ? If you look at our noisy neighbors up the road then we have always been light years behind in youth development since the Jack Charlton era. How many youth players have we developed and then sold on for a six or seven figure sum. (Hirst may have been the first if we hadn't messed it up ). The quality of those who have been on the peripherals of the first team in the last 3 seasons has been nothing special with only the goalkeepers getting regular gametime. The successful u18 team of 2 years ago how many are still on our books ? I think you are overating the ability of that team and apart from Hirst none of our trainees have gone upwards in their career paths.

[gurujuan]

3 minutes ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

How many of the u18-u23s have progressed into the first team on a regular basis in the last 25 years ? If you look at our noisy neighbors up the road then we have always been light years behind in youth development since the Jack Charlton era. How many youth players have we developed and then sold on for a six or seven figure sum. (Hirst may have been the first if we hadn't messed it up ). The quality of those who have been on the peripherals of the first team in the last 3 seasons has been nothing special with only the goalkeepers getting regular gametime. The successful u18 team of 2 years ago how many are still on our books ? I think you are overating the ability of that team and apart from Hirst none of our trainees have gone upwards in their career paths.

I don’t disagree that it’s been a huge issue, but in recent years, there’s been an improvement How much of an improvement, we’ve yet to see. It’s true, we haven’t yet produced that real gem, but if we can supply a steady stream of squad players, that’s a start. That means we no longer have to look outside for signings to give the squad depth. Our neighbours have been streets ahead of us, yes, but hopefully the gap is now narrowing, at academy level anyway. 

[malek]

11 minutes ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

How many of the u18-u23s have progressed into the first team on a regular basis in the last 25 years ? If you look at our noisy neighbors up the road then we have always been light years behind in youth development since the Jack Charlton era. How many youth players have we developed and then sold on for a six or seven figure sum. (Hirst may have been the first if we hadn't messed it up ). The quality of those who have been on the peripherals of the first team in the last 3 seasons has been nothing special with only the goalkeepers getting regular gametime. The successful u18 team of 2 years ago how many are still on our books ? I think you are overating the ability of that team and apart from Hirst none of our trainees have gone upwards in their career paths.

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

We had two generations of very talented youngsters that did great at U-18 and U-23 level. It was club, its policy, those in charge of playing squad and those in charge of them that failed. This club don't care about developing young talent and is guilty for ruining many talented players. For me it is insane that club brings in manager and doesn't task him with bringing youngsters through and creating value from within. Smart clubs, looking for sustainable model do it all the time.

 

Quote

think you are overating the ability of that team and apart from Hirst none of our trainees have gone upwards in their career paths.

 

And who is guilty for this ? People seem to assume that if talented player doesn't make it is because he was never good enough. Often it is down to player, but almost as much it is down club, coaches, managers, luck, etc...

[Ethel The Tree]

36 minutes ago, ZicoSterland2 said:

The successful u18 team of 2 years ago how many are still on our books ?

 

Clearly more than you'd imagine :

 

Render,  Dawodu,  Reaney,  Rice,  Hagan,  Waldock,  Grant,  Thompson,  Shaw and Farmer were all regulars in that title-winning side

Plus another four or five (still with us) who made a handful of appearances throughout that season

 

So continuity is one thing these lads have going in their favour

[gurujuan]

What I would like to see us aim for, is a more streamlined squad, say 18 players, but topped up from a more competitive U23 squad. We need to move away from the idea of having 2 experienced players for every position. Sometimes we’ve had nearly 30 players involved, or just hanging around the first team picture. If we do things the other way, we can concentrate limited finances on buying slightly better players, plus providing an all important pathway for the youngsters coming through

[Ethel The Tree]

1 minute ago, gurujuan said:

What I would like to see us aim for, is a more streamlined squad, say 18 players, but topped up from a more competitive U23 squad. We need to move away from the idea of having 2 experienced players for every position. Sometimes we’ve had nearly 30 players involved, or just hanging around the first team picture. If we do things the other way, we can concentrate limited finances on buying slightly better players, plus providing an all important pathway for the youngsters coming through

 

Amen to that  

[Jim]

I think before we all think Pulis is going to do this and Pulis is going to do that, we ought to give him time to show us what he is going to do.

 

I believe if a player can play then he’ll play a system to suit that players strengths. One thing he won’t do us play a system that doesn’t work like Monk did.

[gurujuan]

22 minutes ago, Ethel The Tree said:

 

Amen to that  

Maybe we are starting to see that We currently have a squad of 24, discounting development players who are part of the squad, but that is without any strikers. Say get that down to 20, with similarly sized age group squads, and we would hopefully have more quality, and potentially more opportunities for the younger players. We probably have to stop changing managers, or at least recruit ones who play a similar style of football Every time we seem to change a manager, we end up with half a dozen players out of favour

[room0035]

2 hours ago, gurujuan said:

What I would like to see us aim for, is a more streamlined squad, say 18 players, but topped up from a more competitive U23 squad. We need to move away from the idea of having 2 experienced players for every position. Sometimes we’ve had nearly 30 players involved, or just hanging around the first team picture. If we do things the other way, we can concentrate limited finances on buying slightly better players, plus providing an all important pathway for the youngsters coming through

Then the EFL change the rules and make EFL clubs with no income currently have to have 9 subs on the bench. And they say those people at the EFL are braindead with out any ability to manage football

[ZicoSterland2]

5 hours ago, malek said:

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

We had two generations of very talented youngsters that did great at U-18 and U-23 level. It was club, its policy, those in charge of playing squad and those in charge of them that failed. This club don't care about developing young talent and is guilty for ruining many talented players. For me it is insane that club brings in manager and doesn't task him with bringing youngsters through and creating value from within. Smart clubs, looking for sustainable model do it all the time.

 

 

And who is guilty for this ? People seem to assume that if talented player doesn't make it is because he was never good enough. Often it is down to player, but almost as much it is down club, coaches, managers, luck, etc...

The youth system is there to develop and bring through talent to the first team squad. It has consistently failed at S6. Wether it has been down to players or management this can't be disputed.