Norwich Rhodes Bid

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

9 hours ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Most of your points are speculative special pleading based on what might happen if a manager or club did this or that. That's not a debate; that's a desperate fantasy constructed out of mist. What would be the difference between this and arguing back in 1999 that Andy Booth would score loads in the Premier League on the basis that he'd got plenty of goals a few years before and that it was everyone else's fault that he hadn't?

 

Apparently Rhodes "guarantees goals" TM, so where are they? It's true that his arrival coincided with a more defensive approach (notwithstanding your delusions about a lone front role which we've only really adopted infrequently until recently) but every other forward we've had has scored at a better rate than him. Even Marco Matias who wasn't really a striker anyway. The chances they get aren't qualitatively or quantitatively different. The goals don't move and they don't have a special ball. Yet every shot he's scuffed wide or header he's dropped weakly into the keeper's chest has been because our wingers aren't up to much, or the manager's too dour, or the crowd have been too critical.

 

 

 

Rhodes' game is simple. Blackburn sat deep, broke with pace out wide, Rhodes was high up the pitch waiting for service in to the box whilst the area was least congested (or he was isolated with his defender) and instinct got him his goals. Boro and Wednesday don't (didn't) play that way - it's slow paced, patient build up play. Rhodes doesn't have the skill set to try and work space in a congested penalty area with the defence back in position, so he isn't going to produce under that system.

 

He's been mis-managed, confidence must be rock bottom, and you're wondering why he missed chances?

 

Loan striker role was in reference to Boro, which I've pointed out previously.

 

 

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

10 hours ago, alanharper said:

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here now. Your exact words regarding Rhodes' goals per minute ratio last season were "wonder when we last had a striker at the club with that tally in the Championship". To which my answer was Joao, who scored more than Rhodes last season and sustained the ratio over more playing time, in a midtable side that wasn't as attacking and he didnt have the best team in the league creating for him like Rhodes did. Therefore he had a far more impressive record/tally/ratio, which answered your question,  plus he's a hell of a lot cheaper as well. 

 

 

 

Point is, Joao struggles to get a game in a middle of the road Championship team, so it's highly unlikely he'll score 20+ goals at this level. Even when he got more game time for us, in a better team, he didn't get anywhere near 20 goals.

 

I actually prefer Joao to Rhodes (because he has pace, decent power, unpredictability, and exciting to watch), but I'd expect more goals from Rhodes - both being played to the strengths obviously.

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

9 hours ago, DJMortimer said:

 

The debate here is about what Rhodes is perceived as being worth, not how much we'd save. It's common knowledge we have a significant financial problem and that the player is potentially amenable to going elsewhere due to the competition here, yet only one club apparently has even kicked the tyres. And they value him so highly that they want to spend nothing on a transfer and at a lower level last season omitted him entirely from more league games (10) than he started (9). It's true that the number of clubs who might entertain a competitive salary for him is somewhat limited, but for someone of the brilliance you suggest in the most sought after commodity in the game, the lack of interest is startling. It seems the consensus is that he is not worth that kind of money and/or is no longer very good. 

 

No, the debate has always been who our best striker is... which then led on the values. 

 

Norwich's "tyre kicking" this summer and loan transfer last summer is more interest than we've had in any other of our strikers. When did a Championship winner or Premier League club last come in for Fletcher, Nuhiu, Winnall, or Joao? I'll save you the bother, they have't.

 

But we seem to be going round in circles here, so I'll leave it there - we have different opinions on judging a mis-managed player, end of debate.

 

 

 

 

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

4 hours ago, sheffwed1 said:

 

Because Abdi fee was half the Rhodes one 

 

Indeed, but we've since got a quarter of Rhodes' fee back and saved ourselves 1 year of his salary. Sadly, Abdi was here for the full 4 years and earned/saved us £0!

 

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

3 hours ago, Walt said:

“He's been under 3 managers who are known for theirdefensive-minded football and often like playing with a lone striker. We know Rhodes isn't effective as a lone striker. I fail to see why anyone wouldjudge Rhodes in a set up that he struggle with.”

 

Sorry mate, I can’t possibly see how that can be read any different to  “Rhodes has often been played as the lone striker under defensive managers”

 

Lees was not crap in a back 3 in Jos’ first season, where he had Vennancio and Puduil to pass the ball out for him and  probably more importantly he played in a settled unit. Second season under Jos and it’s anyone guess as to a back 3, 4 or 5 from one game to the next or the make up of it. Lees was  playing poorly in either a back 3/4/5 until Bruce arrived. 

 

No idea if Sharp was considered washed up or not. Not really my bag that one.

 

I was suggesting under the 3 managers hes suffered from both of those issues; defensive minded and/or being the lone striker. Apologies it wasn't that clear.

 

You not think? I thought Lees was well below his usual standard for most of Jos' time here - even when we were getting decent results, he looked a shadow of what we've come to expect to me. Looks back to himself now, and long may that continue.

 

That was the general consensus in the Wednesday/United banter on here and other social outlets. They've been ramming it down out throats for a while now, and rightly so.

[striker]

Bullen noted a couple of bits of interest, presumably Rhodes and Joao. 

 

Think we ought to sell one, not both, unless we are bringing another forward. To sell both leaves us with...

 

Fletcher

Winnall (hopefully now recovered from his bad injury)

FF (is he a CF?)

Nuhiu (I'm not a fan, let's leave it there)

 

 

[alanharper]

51 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Point is, Joao struggles to get a game in a middle of the road Championship team, so it's highly unlikely he'll score 20+ goals at this level. Even when he got more game time for us, in a better team, he didn't get anywhere near 20 goals.

 

I actually prefer Joao to Rhodes (because he has pace, decent power, unpredictability, and exciting to watch), but I'd expect more goals from Rhodes - both being played to the strengths obviously.

 

You could just as easily use that first sentence with the word Rhodes substituted for Joao. Last season wasn't a one off, Joao has had a better minutes to goals ratio than Rhodes in each of the last three seasons, and he didn't cost £8m and £30k+ pw. 19 league goals from 36.5 games worth of playing time over the last two seasons in a midtable team is impressive - despite his goalscoring reputation, in the same two seasons Rhodes scored 11 from the equivalent of 29 games playing time which included a year in a superior team at Norwich.

 

But you initially used Rhodes stats from last season to come up with a projection of what that equates to over a full season as if it proved that he was still a deadly scorer, and triumphantly suggested that it was better than any of our other strikers - which statistical evidence proves to be absolutely wrong.

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

1 minute ago, alanharper said:

 

You could just as easily use that first sentence with the word Rhodes substituted for Joao. Last season wasn't a one off, Joao has had a better minutes to goals ratio than Rhodes in each of the last three seasons, and he didn't cost £8m and £30k+ pw. 19 league goals from 36.5 games worth of playing time over the last two seasons in a midtable team is impressive - despite his goalscoring reputation, in the same two seasons Rhodes scored 11 from the equivalent of 29 games playing time which included a year in a superior team at Norwich.

 

But you initially used Rhodes stats from last season to come up with a projection of what that equates to over a full season as if it proved that he was still a deadly scorer, and triumphantly suggested that it was better than any of our other strikers - which statistical evidence proves to be absolutely wrong.

 

Except Rhodes has already scored 20+ goals at this level before, Joao hasn't.

 

The Rhodes projection was based on him being in a team that was more suited to his game, as the last time he was in an environment like that was 4 years ago and therefore is being deemed irrelevant, so highlighting what he could do if we played to his strengths.

 

If we are talking statistics - career rather than cherry picked - Rhodes is the best striker at the club. But hey, if you or others disagree, then you're welcome to such an opinion. We move on and enjoy the new season.

[SiJ]

If they actually stumped up a fee for him, then I think you let him go. 

 

Idea of letting him move on for a free is an insult imo. 

 

Tbh, I have no idea why Norwich are so desperate to have him back. He hardly set the world on fire down there, did he? 

 

If they are serious about stopping up, you'd think they might want to recruit better than Jordan Rhodes. 

[RUMBELOWS91]

1 minute ago, SiJ said:

If they actually stumped up a fee for him, then I think you let him go. 

 

Idea of letting him move on for a free is an insult imo. 

 

Tbh, I have no idea why Norwich are so desperate to have him back. He hardly set the world on fire down there, did he? 

 

If they are serious about stopping up, you'd think they might want to recruit better than Jordan Rhodes. 

Because he's a 'cultural architect', apparently.

 

[billyblack]

4 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Except Rhodes has already scored 20+ goals at this level before, Joao hasn't.

 

The Rhodes projection was based on him being in a team that was more suited to his game, as the last time he was in an environment like that was 4 years ago and therefore is being deemed irrelevant, so highlighting what he could do if we played to his strengths.

 

If we are talking statistics - career rather than cherry picked - Rhodes is the best striker at the club. But hey, if you or others disagree, then you're welcome to such an opinion. We move on and enjoy the new season.

If hes not suited to the team then he can go.

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

1 minute ago, SiJ said:

If they actually stumped up a fee for him, then I think you let him go. 

 

Idea of letting him move on for a free is an insult imo. 

 

Tbh, I have no idea why Norwich are so desperate to have him back. He hardly set the world on fire down there, did he? 

 

If they are serious about stopping up, you'd think they might want to recruit better than Jordan Rhodes. 

 

Probably see the potential to make a few quid. If we give Rhodes away to them and he comes off the bench and chips in with a few goals this season, they'll expect to get a few quid for him. Easy money and the only gamble his is salary, which is buttons in the Premier League these days.

 

Alternatively, get him on a free now and he'll be useful on their bench back in the Championship in 12 months time.

[billyblack]

1 hour ago, striker said:

Bullen noted a couple of bits of interest, presumably Rhodes and Joao. 

 

Think we ought to sell one, not both, unless we are bringing another forward. To sell both leaves us with...

 

Fletcher

Winnall (hopefully now recovered from his bad injury)

FF (is he a CF?)

Nuhiu (I'm not a fan, let's leave it there)

 

 

Sell FF. Bring in another winger.

 

Sell rhodes and bring a forward in on loan. 

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

3 minutes ago, billyblack said:

If hes not suited to the team then he can go.

 

Ahem. Though from a P&S point of view, we can't really let him go unless the money involved balances what we'd owe Boro.

Edited August 2, 2019 by oh_weds_we_love_you

[Brando17]

4 hours ago, vulture_squadron said:

Question - Norwich played one up front last year and Rhodes occasionally covered Pukki and scored a few goals. Are we absolutely certain we he can't compete with Fletch for the lone frontman?

we should play Fletcher and Rhodes together every game,that lone frontman just invites pressure

[HOOTIE AND THE SHIT TU]

4 hours ago, vulture_squadron said:

Question - Norwich played one up front last year and Rhodes occasionally covered Pukki and scored a few goals. Are we absolutely certain we he can't compete with Fletch for the lone frontman?

Depends how the new manager wants to play

 

If you play the ball wanting the front man to hold it up and link the team, then it's Fletcher

 

If you're putting in crosses and through balls then Rhodes would be better

 

It's worth noting that Rhodes best spells at Huddersfield and Blackburn, he had a big partner up front, he didn't play the lone striker

[alanharper]

1 minute ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Except Rhodes has already scored 20+ goals at this level before, Joao hasn't.

 

The Rhodes projection was based on him being in a team that was more suited to his game, as the last time he was in an environment like that was 4 years ago and therefore is being deemed irrelevant, so highlighting what he could do if we played to his strengths.

 

If we are talking statistics - career rather than cherry picked - Rhodes is the best striker at the club. But hey, if you or others disagree, then you're welcome to such an opinion. We move on and enjoy the new season.

 

If we're talking about past achievements but then doing nothing in recent years being relevant, in Rhodes case the last three barren seasons being a quarter of his playing career, the likes of Danny Wilson, Micky Adams, Roy Keane, Owen Coyle and Phil Brown have promotions to the Premier League on their managerial CV so let's go get one of them.

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

4 hours ago, vulture_squadron said:

Question - Norwich played one up front last year and Rhodes occasionally covered Pukki and scored a few goals. Are we absolutely certain we he can't compete with Fletch for the lone frontman?

 

Must admit, from what I saw of Norwich last season it didn't look like Pukki was the lone striker. Hernandez and Steipermann (sp?) always seemed to be in very close proximity to Pukki causing chaos and confusion to teams playing with a back 4.

[oh_weds_we_love_you]

11 minutes ago, alanharper said:

 

If we're talking about past achievements but then doing nothing in recent years being relevant, in Rhodes case the last three barren seasons being a quarter of his playing career, the likes of Danny Wilson, Micky Adams, Roy Keane, Owen Coyle and Phil Brown have promotions to the Premier League on their managerial CV so let's go get one of them.

 

Aye, and as I've stated a number of times already, that's why I've called on the past as it's extremely unfair and inaccurate to judge someone on recent history when they've been used as a screwdriver to get a nail into the wood.

 

It's the same way I wouldn't judge any of our players under Jos, it's not fair on them cos he's a f*cking melon.

Edited August 2, 2019 by oh_weds_we_love_you

[alanharper]

14 minutes ago, oh_weds_we_love_you said:

 

Aye, and as I've stated a number of times already, that's why I've called on the past as it's extremely unfair and inaccurate to judge someone on recent history when they've been used as a screwdriver to get a nail into the wood.

 

It's the same way I wouldn't judge any of our players under Jos, it's not fair on them cos he's a f*cking melon.

 

 

Hey Lucas, this guy says that we wouldn't score goals under Jos