Carlos Flexibility - How we got back in it - Tactical Review

[RichieB]

13 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

Simples... except........by accident or design (and I'm going to give Carlos credit)  it worked ever so slightly differently and ended up more 4-3-3.

 

Definitely no accident in my eyes, Carlos changed it to 4-3-3 and it worked very well. 

 

Would love to see this with Fernando on the left side of the front 3. 

 

Excellent OP mate. 

[Lord Snooty]

4 minutes ago, RichieB said:

 

Definitely no accident in my eyes, Carlos changed it to 4-3-3 and it worked very well. 

 

Would love to see this with Fernando on the left side of the front 3. 

 

Excellent OP mate. 

 

The manager has to take credit for the switch. No doubt about it.

 

As I said. Slightly Ironic that we use it at a time when the two players it would benefit most (FF and Lee) are both out for differing reasons.

[RichieB]

2 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

The manager has to take credit for the switch. No doubt about it.

 

As I said. Slightly Ironic that we use it at a time when the two players it would benefit most (FF and Lee) are both out for differing reasons.

 

It is, and we looked very dangerous, So imagine how it would look with Lee and FF starting in that formation. Really hope Carlos sticks with 4-3-3 the majority of game's. 

 

Obviously away from home against top teams I wouldn't begrudge a more solid approach from the start, but in the rest let's go for It! Let other teams worry about our players in the 4-3-3 

 

Go 4-3-3! 

[Lord Snooty]

4 minutes ago, RichieB said:

 

Obviously away from home against top teams I wouldn't begrudge a more solid approach from the start,

 

There's the beauty of it.

It doesn't have to be a front three of strikers as it was yesterday with Fletcher, Hooper and Winnall (Rhodes)

Away from home you can play the same way but put wingers in the wide areas and have them shuttling back when we lose it.

As we did against Arsenal in the cup the other year.

 

 

[RichieB]

Just now, Lord Snooty said:

 

There's the beauty of it.

It doesn't have to be a front three of strikers as it was yesterday with Fletcher, Hooper and Winnall (Rhodes)

Away from home you can play the same way but put wingers in the wide areas and have them shuttling back when we lose it.

As we did against Arsenal in the cup the other year.

 

 

 

Yeah, Just don't ask FF to do this 

[oldishowl]

Anybody who saw us against Rangers and Preston knew something had to change.

 

I like the diamond as a starter as it gives us some chance of getting on the ball and playing a bit of football, something we were failing to do otherwise. It gives us numbers in central midfield .

Our previous system tried to that but relied on wide players moving inside, a striker dropping deep , with a diamond the players are already there.

 

The move to 433 gives us more attacking impetus if we play 3 strikers.

 

I think both the systems are simpler to understand and implement than our previous 442

 

The players look happier to me.

 

Hunt and Reach are a good fit for it as both get forward. Bannan and Jones played well but not sure about  Wallace. Boyd until Lee gets fit? I am in the minority as I like Abdi , good footballer and if we can get him up to speed he could make a big difference. Who knows what the FF situation really is, however I am sure this system would suit him

 

As fans we have to accept it might go  pear shaped for some games because we are still learning but we need to stick with it, the old system was time expired 

 

[Socialist_Owl]

We'd look a lot better with Boyd somewhere in that lineup.

[Athelwulf]

Our flexible friend. 

[wiseowl91]

Totally agree with all that has been said here. Although I don't think FF wants to play the left of the diamond or 433 (his most threatening position IMO) and wants the central role. If this is the case then he is surplus to requirements and should be let go. FF probably can see this if true and I reckon that he realises that Fletcher/Hooper/Winnall/Rhodes are more flexible to playing these positions as and when needed and is threatened by this. Probably why he had his playground tantrum during training with Winnall

Edited August 17, 2017 by wiseowl91

[Lord Snooty]

47 minutes ago, oldishowl said:

 

The move to 433 gives us more attacking impetus if we play 3 strikers.

 

I think both the systems are simpler to understand and implement than our previous 442

 

I till think 4-4-2 will have it's part to play in the system. Funnily enough, last night was probably one of those few times when it might have been a decent option against a team playing the same way!

 

Quote

The players look happier to me.

 

The second half especially was as fluid as I'm seen then in a long while.  And confidence is a funny thing.

Look how Reach found a couple of extra gears when he had the opportunity to play triangles and give and goes with Fletcher and Bannan.

Footballers are at their best when they are relaxed and when they are comfortable.

 

Quote

Hunt and Reach are a good fit for it as both get forward. Bannan and Jones played well but not sure about  Wallace. Boyd until Lee gets fit? I am in the minority as I like Abdi , good footballer and if we can get him up to speed he could make a big difference. Who knows what the FF situation really is, however I am sure this system would suit him

 

It is the problem we have with Hutchinson and Lee both being out. 

I actually think that Boyd might have got one for Wallace had we not being holding a sub back in case of injuries. No point risking going down to ten men when the team have put all that effort into getting back in the game.

 

I think most people appreciate that Abdi is a terrific player. But we've just, sadly, not seen what he's previously been capable of except in odd flashes.

I think we all hope that he can get fit and become a real option for us.

 

Quote

As fans we have to accept it might go  pear shaped for some games because we are still learning but we need to stick with it, the old system was time expired 

 

Ideally you'd like to think these things are tried pre-season.  One thing that will be hard is if the fans don't show a little patience because it might be needed. Especially with the current injury list.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Lord Snooty

[Costello 77]

1 hour ago, oldishowl said:

Anybody who saw us against Rangers and Preston knew something had to change.

 

I like the diamond as a starter as it gives us some chance of getting on the ball and playing a bit of football, something we were failing to do otherwise. It gives us numbers in central midfield .

Our previous system tried to that but relied on wide players moving inside, a striker dropping deep , with a diamond the players are already there.

 

The move to 433 gives us more attacking impetus if we play 3 strikers.

 

I think both the systems are simpler to understand and implement than our previous 442

 

The players look happier to me.

 

Hunt and Reach are a good fit for it as both get forward. Bannan and Jones played well but not sure about  Wallace. Boyd until Lee gets fit? I am in the minority as I like Abdi , good footballer and if we can get him up to speed he could make a big difference. Who knows what the FF situation really is, however I am sure this system would suit him

 

As fans we have to accept it might go  pear shaped for some games because we are still learning but we need to stick with it, the old system was time expired 

 

I'm beginning to see it your way.

Good post.

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

16 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

The way I saw it.

A diamond. In the first half at least.

Ironically seeing as we usually play a flat 4-4-2 that would have matched them up, tonight our first half Diamond caused us some problems as it narrowed our play even more than usual!

McGeady was having a lot of space to get into in wide areas, though for my money didn't look any better than when he was here.

 

We were very rigid and though we had the ball in central areas, we didn't dominate it as we would have liked because our movement wasn't up to scratch.

 

Abdi looked a yard off the pace, sadly. Bannan and Wallace were having to do a lot of shuttling to get out wide and close down.

As I said, it's ironic as usually when teams come and outnumber us in midfield they are having to tuck in...this time they were having to run out!

Second half Fletcher came on for the ineffectual Abdi. Some game time under his belt at least for old Almen, and his lack of match legs might perhaps go someway to proving to the conspiracy theorists that the injuries he's had are genuine and not made up by evil Carlos for no explainable reason. Anyway.I digress...

 

The obvious adapting to this change would be that Fletcher went to centre forward and Hooper would take up Abdis place at the tip of the diamond.

Simples... except........by accident or design (and I'm going to give Carlos credit)  it worked ever so slightly differently and ended up more 4-3-3.

 

 

Fletcher nominally playing down the middle with Winnall (and later Rhodes) as a centre forward but.. with a natural strikers instinct Hooper was playing more advanced than Abdi had done in the first period and Fletcher didn’t stay down the middle. Rather he kept coming out wide left.

 

This caused Sunderland all sorts of problems. 

Firstly it stretched the Black Cats back-line width ways, and stoped any advancement of Sunderlands full backs, who were now being instructed to pick up the wide runs of Wednesdays strikers by their centre halves who didn't want to get pulled out themselves and leave the central areas free.

 

Secondly, when Winnall did the same on the other side it made Hooper the nominal centre forward. 

But with him always adopting a slightly deeper starting position , it made it hard for their centre halves to know whether to come out or stay put.  As comes naturally, and not wanting to leave any side on gaps to the diagonal ball they dropped off him and tried to stay as a tight pair.

They also didn't want to run the risk of pushing higher up than their fullbacks (who were pinned in by Fletcher and Winnall)  and being caught by a ball in behind them.

This resulted in a deeper and deeper line and invited Wednesday on.  Which Wednesday were only too glad to do! 

 

Thirdly, and in many ways most importantly, the working of the channels by our strikers rather than staying central allowed our full backs to have someone to link with directly rather than the wide open spaces they had faced in the first half.

No one took advantage of this more that Reach, who with Fletcher to find down the line, was looking for him at will and then making his own powerful surges PAST him  for the return (or a second ball from Bannan after a Fletcher lay off into midfield)

 

The link between Bannan, Reach and Fletcher was superb. The only slight downside was that it meant Fletcher wasn't in the box as much as I'd have liked to have seen.

Ironically it was a role which would have suited Fernando down to the ground as the left of a 3 pronged attack. Being a centre forward, but having licence to go wide and find space (and create space for others) without having to track back as he does when played wide in a 4.

 

Anyway...another ten minutes and I do firmly believe that Wednesday would have won it.

 

I genuinely hope this is a tactical turning point for us and is a sign of a greater flexibility from the manager and  fluidity from the players to come.

Mojo back? Who knows.

Now we just need to start a game like we finished this one

Bloody Thirdly, I thought Carlos only had one plan ? Anyway it's not secondly and thirdly it's  Beeley and Sealey (The Guy who cut his knee) ! Great post ! The Pigs amongst us won't have a clue with the Sealey reference

[Bouncing Owl]

8 hours ago, IstillhateSteveBould said:

Great post Snoots.

 

433 with key players back in = great chance of promotion.

 

442 = Boring football and no chance

 

Agreed! I've been a big advocate of playing 4-3-3. If we get Lee and Bannan playing in a midfield 3 alongside a defensive midfielder and get Ff on the left of a front 3, that would be ideal. Obviously there are issues with FF but I hope we can get this whole situation sorted as he is key to our success this season. Hunt and Reach to provide the width. I think Reach is suited to this role as he can run from deep into space. Don't fancy him as a winger - he's not got that natural flair to beat a man.

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

I agree with Snoots, Bouncing and SB but we have been here before and 4-3-3, 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 doesn't come without the problems in a 50+ game season (temporary & periodic) burn out.

[Rogerwyldesmullet]

16 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

The way I saw it.

A diamond. In the first half at least.

Ironically seeing as we usually play a flat 4-4-2 that would have matched them up, tonight our first half Diamond caused us some problems as it narrowed our play even more than usual!

McGeady was having a lot of space to get into in wide areas, though for my money didn't look any better than when he was here.

 

We were very rigid and though we had the ball in central areas, we didn't dominate it as we would have liked because our movement wasn't up to scratch.

 

Abdi looked a yard off the pace, sadly. Bannan and Wallace were having to do a lot of shuttling to get out wide and close down.

As I said, it's ironic as usually when teams come and outnumber us in midfield they are having to tuck in...this time they were having to run out!

Second half Fletcher came on for the ineffectual Abdi. Some game time under his belt at least for old Almen, and his lack of match legs might perhaps go someway to proving to the conspiracy theorists that the injuries he's had are genuine and not made up by evil Carlos for no explainable reason. Anyway.I digress...

 

The obvious adapting to this change would be that Fletcher went to centre forward and Hooper would take up Abdis place at the tip of the diamond.

Simples... except........by accident or design (and I'm going to give Carlos credit)  it worked ever so slightly differently and ended up more 4-3-3.

 

 

Fletcher nominally playing down the middle with Winnall (and later Rhodes) as a centre forward but.. with a natural strikers instinct Hooper was playing more advanced than Abdi had done in the first period and Fletcher didn’t stay down the middle. Rather he kept coming out wide left.

 

This caused Sunderland all sorts of problems. 

Firstly it stretched the Black Cats back-line width ways, and stoped any advancement of Sunderlands full backs, who were now being instructed to pick up the wide runs of Wednesdays strikers by their centre halves who didn't want to get pulled out themselves and leave the central areas free.

 

Secondly, when Winnall did the same on the other side it made Hooper the nominal centre forward. 

But with him always adopting a slightly deeper starting position , it made it hard for their centre halves to know whether to come out or stay put.  As comes naturally, and not wanting to leave any side on gaps to the diagonal ball they dropped off him and tried to stay as a tight pair.

They also didn't want to run the risk of pushing higher up than their fullbacks (who were pinned in by Fletcher and Winnall)  and being caught by a ball in behind them.

This resulted in a deeper and deeper line and invited Wednesday on.  Which Wednesday were only too glad to do! 

 

Thirdly, and in many ways most importantly, the working of the channels by our strikers rather than staying central allowed our full backs to have someone to link with directly rather than the wide open spaces they had faced in the first half.

No one took advantage of this more that Reach, who with Fletcher to find down the line, was looking for him at will and then making his own powerful surges PAST him  for the return (or a second ball from Bannan after a Fletcher lay off into midfield)

 

The link between Bannan, Reach and Fletcher was superb. The only slight downside was that it meant Fletcher wasn't in the box as much as I'd have liked to have seen.

Ironically it was a role which would have suited Fernando down to the ground as the left of a 3 pronged attack. Being a centre forward, but having licence to go wide and find space (and create space for others) without having to track back as he does when played wide in a 4.

 

Anyway...another ten minutes and I do firmly believe that Wednesday would have won it.

 

I genuinely hope this is a tactical turning point for us and is a sign of a greater flexibility from the manager and  fluidity from the players to come.

Mojo back? Who knows.

Now we just need to start a game like we finished this one

 

M'lud Snooty. Please forward to Carlos 

4:5:1 to 4:3:3 is the only way we can hang in there against Fulham. 

[Lord Snooty]

The change actually stands out more on the highlights.

The Reach, Bannan , Fletcher triumvirate really clicked out there.

 

 

[Errol Flashman]

3 hours ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

 

 

 

Thought that we had a decent double penalty shout when Smithies pulls our lad down then the kid on the the front stick handballs it. 

 

Thought it at time and seein it again hasn't changed me mind.

[Lord Snooty]

On 17/08/2017 at 18:24, Rogerwyldesmullet said:

 

M'lud Snooty. Please forward to Carlos 

4:5:1 .... is the only way we can hang in there against Fulham. 

 

With Hooper dropping in when required at Fulham it looks like he got your message!