Anger as Pokemon Go uses SWFC Hillsborough memorial as 'Pokestop'

[southportdc]

Just now, steveger said:

Most police forces are competent at what they do, apart from one that's totally useless and has a history for it

 

It's interesting, because what we seem to have is a scenario where drunk people turn up to every single football match ever held in this country, but because of policing and ground design are kept safe these days. Yet when it goes wrong and people can see policing failures and ground safety errors, they still think it must be the drink that caused it. 

 

You might as well blame the fans for attending the game. Wouldn't have happened without then there.

[Dick_Turpin]

2 minutes ago, Paolo Di Catio said:

 Was the Bishop Of Liverpool on the inquest ?

 

The Bishop of Liverpool was on the Hillsborough independent Panel. He had nothing to do with the inquest unless he was called as a witness.

 

 The inquest is run by the coroner and the verdict delivered by a jury which heard vast quantities of evidence. There's some real eye opening stuff - the Wednesday safety engineer evidence is pretty shocking, Duckenfield's apology and admissions were very dramatic etc. I thought the club came out of it better than I'd feared. It's there online if you want to read it.

 

Lawyers represented all the main players and asked whatever questions they wanted. The jury heard all this - much more than anyone on here has read or heard I suspect and came to the conclusions you dispute and I agree with based on whatever you or I have read about it. They are broadly in line with the Taylor Interim Report which the police spent decades trying to discredit. I recommend you read it for much of the nitty gritty facts on pen capacities, turnstiles etc which are at the nub of understanding what happened. 

[Dick_Turpin]

12 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

So why did Hillsborough happen that day and that place rather than somewhere else? What caused it?

Read the Taylor Report. It's the quickest way of finding out. 

[coopswfc76]

11 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

So why did Hillsborough happen that day and that place rather than somewhere else? What caused it?

 

Why did ibrox, Bradford, heysel happen but didn't at other grounds?

Lots of circumstances led to all of them and there's no getting away from the fact fans behaviour on the day & fans behaviour in general during the 80's contributed.

How old are you southportdc?

[southportdc]

1 minute ago, rickygoo said:

Read the Taylor Report. It's the quickest way of finding out. 

 

I have and I know. I'm just trying to make people think about it in a logical way rather than 'well lots of people died in a crowd with drunk people in a stadium and since then we kept the drunk people but changed the stadium design and nobody died so it must have been the drunk people what caused it' etc.

[coopswfc76]

14 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

Oh so new stadium design makes drinking at games safe?

 

Err yes of course they do plus better policing, better fan behaviour and reduced capacity.

[coopswfc76]

2 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

I have and I know. I'm just trying to make people think about it in a logical way rather than 'well lots of people died in a crowd with drunk people in a stadium and since then we kept the drunk people but changed the stadium design and nobody died so it must have been the drunk people what caused it' etc.

 

Who on here as actually said it was just the drunk people that caused it?

[DeeJayOne]

20 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

So why did Hillsborough happen that day and that place rather than somewhere else? What caused it?

 

Bingo.

 

Here's some reasoning:

 

1. Basic facts of the disaster: Do you agree with the following statement: "Ninety-six people died as a result of the disaster at the Hillsborough stadium on 15 April 1989 due to crushing in the central pens of the Leppings Lane terrace, following the admission of a large number of supporters to the stadium through exit gates." 

Jury's answer: Yes. 

  

2. Police planning for the semi-final match: Was there any error or omission in police planning or preparation which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match? 

Jury's answer: Yes 

"We feel there were major omissions in the 1989 operational order". 

  

3. Policing of the match and the situation at the turnstiles: Was there any error or omission in policing on the day of the match which caused or contributed to a dangerous situation developing at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?  

Jury's answer: Yes  

"The police response to the increasing crowd at Leppings Lane was slow and uncoordinated.  

"The road closure and sweep of fans exacerbated the situation. No filter cordons were place in Leppings Lane. No contingency plans were made for the sudden arrival of a large number of fans.  

"Attempts to close the perimeter gates were made too late". 

  

4. Policing of the match and the crush on the terrace: Was there any error or omission by commanding officers which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?  

Jury's answer: Yes 

"Commanding officers should have ordered the closing of the central tunnel".  

  

5. The opening of the gates: When the order was given to open the exit gates at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium was there any error or omission by the commanding officers in the control box which caused or contributed to the crush on the terrace?  

Jury's answer: Yes  

"Commanding officers did not inform officers in the inner concourse prior to the opening of Gate C.  

"Commanding officers failed to consider where fans would go.  

"Commanding officers failed to order the closure of the central tunnel prior to the opening of Gate C". 

  

6. Unlawful killing: Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed? To answer 'yes' to this question, the jurors must be sure of the following:

• Firstly, that Ch Supt David Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96 who died
• Secondly, that he was in breach of that duty of care 
• Thirdly, that the breach of Mr Duckenfield's duty of care caused the deaths
• Finally, the jury must be sure that the breach which caused the deaths amounted to "gross negligence." 

Jury's answer: Yes 

  

7. Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?  

Jury's answer: No  

  

8. Defects in Hillsborough stadium: Were there any features of its design, construction and layout which were dangerous or defective and which probably or may have caused or contributed to the disaster? 

Jury's answer: Yes 

"The design and layout of the crush barriers in P 3 and 4 were not fully compliant with the green guide.  

"The removal of barrier 144 and the partial removal of barrier 136 would have exacerbated the waterfall effect of pressure towards the front of the pens.  

"The lack of dedicated turnstiles for individual pens meant that capacities could not be monitored.  

"There were too few turnstiles for a capacity crowd.  

"Signage to the side pens was inadequate". 

  

9. Licensing and oversight of the stadium: Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough Stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?  

Jury's answer: Yes 

"The safety certificate was never amended to reflect changes to the Leppings Lane end of the stadium. Therefore capacity figures were not updated". 

  

10. Conduct of Sheffield Wednesday FC before the day of the match: Was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi final match on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation which developed on the day of the match?  

Jury's answer: Yes 

"The club did not approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles for each pen.  

"The club did not agree any contingency plans with the police.  

"There was inadequate signage and inadequate and misleading information on the tickets". 

  

11. Conduct of Sheffield Wednesday FC on the day of the match: Was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?  

Jury's answer: No 

11a If "no", was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff on 15 April 1989 which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?  

Jury's answer: Yes 

"Club officials were aware of a huge number of fans still outside at 14:40. They should have requested a delay in kick off. 

  

12. Conduct of Eastwood and Partners (SWFC engineers): Should they have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of the stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster? 

Jury's answer: Yes 

Eastwood and Partners did not make their own calculations when they became consulstants for SWFC, therefore the initial capacity figures and all subsequent calculations were incorrect.  

Eastwood and Partners failed to recalculate capacity figures each time changes were made to the terraces.  

Eastwood and Partners failed to update the safety certificate after 1986.  

  

13. Emergency response and the role of South Yorkshire Police: After the crush in the West Terrace had begun to develop was there any error or omission by the police which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster? 

Jury's answer: Yes 

"The police delayed declaring a major incident so appropriate emergency response was delayed."  

  

14. Emergency response and the role of South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service (SYMAS): After the crush in the west terrace had begun to develop, was there any error or omission by the ambulance service SYMAS which caused or contributed to the loss of lives in the disaster?  

Jury's answer: Yes 

"They failed to ascertain the nature of the problem at Leppings Lane.  

"The failure to recognise and call a major incident led to delays in responding to the emergency."

[LJH1867OWLS]

1 minute ago, southportdc said:

 

So why did Hillsborough happen that day and that place rather than somewhere else? What caused it?

I would say a lot of things caused it.

awful ground design outside LL, a inexperienced police commissioner completely out of his depth,

(lack of communication i.e lack of police officers with police radios)

late arrival of fans/ not enough turnstiles to process them,

pens separated with 6ft high spiked fences with exit gets to the side locked and an underlying stigma attached to every football fan.

 

One of these things alone probably wouldn't have caused a disaster of the magnitude of Hillsborough but put together took the lives of 96 people.

 

i agree fans played a minor part in Hillsborough, a small cog in a much bigger machine and I think the fact that fans were completely in the clear is wrong but the 96 who lost their lives didn't deserve the slander they got, they didn't deserve the blame, didn't deserve "the truth" by the sun, didn't deserve to have their blood alcohol levels taken (including the children) to help fuel police lies and a cover up and more importantly they didn't deserve to die 

[HIGHERSTATE]

OK lets look at it from another angle...Imagine if there was some blame placed on the Liverpool fans that weren't involved in the disaster, even a little...Do you think people would have accepted this and gone on with their business.?  It would have been utter carnage and fury against the establishment, the justice system, the media and anyone else in their way..They would not have turned against their own fans...There would have been panic, public outrage and downright anger....The fall guys had been chosen and someone was having to pay..

 

Does this make the verdict somewhat loaded?

[southportdc]

4 minutes ago, coopswfc76 said:

 

Why did ibrox, Bradford, heysel happen but didn't at other grounds?

Lots of circumstances led to all of them and there's no getting away from the fact fans behaviour on the day & fans behaviour in general during the 80's contributed.

How old are you southportdc?

 

Heysel is separate as that was caused by hooliganism on behalf of the Liverpool fans. Yes the stadium was dodgy, but it would have been fine without their aggression.

 

Valley Parade was caused by fans in an unsafe environment. I've never seen anyone on here call for those fans to be blamed on a court of law. 

 

Same for Ibrox, although obviously that was also caused by Rangers recklessly scoring a goal. Oddly they have continued to do that since then without people dying. 

 

I'm 26. I know exactly what you're going to say about that, and it'll only prove my point even more. 

[Sonny]

45 minutes ago, coopswfc76 said:

Actually I'm starting to change my view that there was lots of contributing factors now because DeeJayOne in particular keeps insisting fans had no blame attached at all.

There was no unruly drunken behaviour or ticketless fans at the semi final to contribute as for some strange reason this was the one big game in the 80's where none of this happened.

The end.

 

So drunkenness happened all the time but such disasters were very very very very very very rare. Yet logic dictates that the drink was to blame in some way? 

 

I've noticed a correlation between all of this drunkenness and the single disaster all taking place in front of a green patch of land. Hmmm suspicious green patch of land.

 

 

[Dick_Turpin]

5 minutes ago, coopswfc76 said:

 

Why did ibrox, Bradford, heysel happen but didn't at other grounds?

Lots of circumstances led to all of them and there's no getting away from the fact fans behaviour on the day & fans behaviour in general during the 80's contributed.

How old are you southportdc?

Ibrox and Burnden Park taught lessons that were forgotten by the 80s when football crowd policing was seen as a public order not a safety issue. That was a critical feature of the disaster and in a way everyone of us who cheered on Wednesday, Man Utd, Liverpool fans etc as they caused mayhem contributed to the police misjudgement. Without the pens designed to segregate fans on the Lep the death toll would have been nil or

much lower.

 

But fundamentally monitor

the pens properly and close the doors on the tunnel entrance and the Disaster doesn't happen. A blunder of the first magnitude Taylor called it. 

 

 

[Sonny]

2 minutes ago, HIGHERSTATE said:

OK lets look at it from another angle...Imagine if there was some blame placed on the Liverpool fans that weren't involved in the disaster, even a little...Do you think people would have accepted this and gone on with their business.?  It would have been utter carnage and fury against the establishment, the justice system, the media and anyone else in their way..They would not have turned against their own fans...There would have been panic, public outrage and downright anger....The fall guys had been chosen and someone was having to pay..

 

Does this make the verdict somewhat loaded?

 

'The fall guys'

 

Wow - that's one way to describe gross negligence and cover up via down right lies.

[southportdc]

5 minutes ago, LJH1867OWLS said:

I would say a lot of things caused it.

awful ground design outside LL, a inexperienced police commissioner completely out of his depth,

(lack of communication i.e lack of police officers with police radios)

late arrival of fans/ not enough turnstiles to process them,

pens separated with 6ft high spiked fences with exit gets to the side locked and an underlying stigma attached to every football fan.

 

One of these things alone probably wouldn't have caused a disaster of the magnitude of Hillsborough but put together took the lives of 96 people.

 

i agree fans played a minor part in Hillsborough, a small cog in a much bigger machine and I think the fact that fans were completely in the clear is wrong but the 96 who lost their lives didn't deserve the slander they got, they didn't deserve the blame, didn't deserve "the truth" by the sun, didn't deserve to have their blood alcohol levels taken (including the children) to help fuel police lies and a cover up and more importantly they didn't deserve to die 

 

Of course the fans played a part, they were the people who crushed and/or were crushed.

 

To hold them to blame in the inquest you have to prove they acted in a way that was unreasonable or unexpected or otherwise out of the ordinary. 

 

 

[ANDY]

1 minute ago, steveger said:

It's way more than what happened at Hillsborough, their day to day policing is a farce, look at Orgreave, look at what happened in Rotherham with the grooming, there's many more instances on a smaller scale where they just cant cope or seem to handle anything, they aint fit for purpose and they should be merged and run by west yorkshire police.

This isnt me having a go at the brave and hardworking frustrated cops on the street as they are obviously controlled by the people at the top, making a complete arse of it, year after year.

 

 

I was just typing something along these lines. 

 

Agree 100%

 

 

[coopswfc76]

3 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

Heysel is separate as that was caused by hooliganism on behalf of the Liverpool fans. Yes the stadium was dodgy, but it would have been fine without their aggression.

 

Valley Parade was caused by fans in an unsafe environment. I've never seen anyone on here call for those fans to be blamed on a court of law. 

 

Same for Ibrox, although obviously that was also caused by Rangers recklessly scoring a goal. Oddly they have continued to do that since then without people dying. 

 

I'm 26. I know exactly what you're going to say about that, and it'll only prove my point even more. 

 

So the fact that you never experienced watching football in the 80's actually supports your point???

 

Ibrox fan behaviour in the crush to get back in to the ground, probably fuelled by alcohol so they wasn't thinking right as they were no big screens to see the replay on back then so why turnround?

 

Bradford people just smoking and throwing tab ends down on a wooden stand, madness back then but people still did it as a lot of people just did what they wanted at football back then.

 

Heysel fans but yes I agree a better ground & organisation might have prevented the deaths.

 

Hillsborough better organisation & ground design would no doubt have prevented a lot of deaths if not them all but fan behaviour on the day & thru the 80's had led to that point.

[southportdc]

3 minutes ago, steveger said:

It's way more than what happened at Hillsborough, their day to day policing is a farce, look at Orgreave, look at what happened in Rotherham with the grooming, there's many more instances on a smaller scale where they just cant cope or seem to handle anything, they aint fit for purpose and they should be merged and run by west yorkshire police.

This isnt me having a go at the brave and hardworking frustrated cops on the street as they are obviously controlled by the people at the top, making a complete arse of it, year after year.

 

To be very clear, I don't think the police at the ground had any malicious intentions whatsoever. I think a simple mistake was made that caused the deaths of 96 people. A very easy mistake to make which had horrendous consequences. 

 

What happened afterwards, orchestrated by the head of the force and even government, is the shocking and disgusting bit. 

 

The point of the inquest is to provide a basis for going after those people who organised the cover-up, not your average policeman or paramedic. 

[southportdc]

2 minutes ago, coopswfc76 said:

 

So the fact that you never experienced watching football in the 80's actually supports your point???

 

Ibrox fan behaviour in the crush to get back in to the ground, probably fuelled by alcohol so they wasn't thinking right as they were no big screens to see the replay on back then so why turnround?

 

Bradford people just smoking and throwing tab ends down on a wooden stand, madness back then but people still did it as a lot of people just did what they wanted at football back then.

 

Heysel fans but yes I agree a better ground & organisation might have prevented the deaths.

 

Hillsborough better organisation & ground design would no doubt have prevented a lot of deaths if not them all but fan behaviour on the day & thru the 80's had led to that point.

 

No, the fact that the changes to ground design and policing have prevented any more deaths or crushes supports my point that ground design and policing caused the crushes. 

 

Either that or everyone got sober and punctual after 1989. 

[Inspector Lestrade]

35 minutes ago, southportdc said:

 

Oh so new stadium design makes drinking at games safe?

 

Who said that?