Anger as Pokemon Go uses SWFC Hillsborough memorial as 'Pokestop'

[lukestheman82]

2 hours ago, rickygoo said:

Without a few drunks and some ticketless fans would the disaster have happened? My take on the evidence is yes - therefore they weren't to blame

I am of the opinion that the disaster would probably have happened without the drunk and ticketless supporters, however, I don't accept that didn't contribute to it.

[Weshallovercome]

Has anyone blamed Thatcher yet?

 

Surely fencing supporters in has to be a contributing factor, the first link(or the last) in the chain of events.

[@owlstalk]

 

 

I still get amazed by just how effective The Sun and co were at scapegoating the fans 

The relentless propaganda hurled at the Liverpool fans by the press has clearly sunk in to a deep deep level amongst some who just can't admit they're totally wrong

 

[Paolo Di Catio]

10 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

I still get amazed by just how effective The Sun and co were at scapegoating the fans 

The relentless propaganda hurled at the Liverpool fans by the press has clearly sunk in to a deep deep level amongst some who just can't admit they're totally wrong

 

You're the only one taking comments from The Sun.

 You somehow think that anybody who disagrees with you is wrong and therefore got all their reasoning from that rag. 

[wenzdyboy]

15 minutes ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

I still get amazed by just how effective The Sun and co were at scapegoating the fans 

The relentless propaganda hurled at the Liverpool fans by the press has clearly sunk in to a deep deep level amongst some who just can't admit they're totally wrong

 

What is even more amazing is that Kelvin Mackenzie is still around and spewing out his bile on a regular basis against anyone and anything that gets him hot under his right-wing collar. He wants prosecuting for sure.

[lukestheman82]

21 minutes ago, Weshallovercome said:

 

Surely, given that the powers that be accept that ticketless fans, albeit a small amount may have gained access on to Leppings Lane.

I would assume that some kind of maths genius could calculate the effect of how, even, say 1 average males height and weight could effect the force/pressure pushing down on the barriers.

If that could be worked out that even 1 person who shouldn't have been there had or had not even a minute effect on what happened then we would have a real answer as to whether ticketless fans could hold even a dot of blame?

[CE-Owl]

I always remember as a teenager, how I used to have a few pints with a mate's dad. He was a big Wednesdayite and a copper - a disillusioned one - and he was a great bloke.

He told me in detail about how, during the miner's strike, a fellow copper got floored by one of the ringleaders during a stand-off. So they got a van and chased him across a field, running him over and breaking his legs. Like I say, he was a great bloke but during the miner's strike he got swallowed up in an organisation that behaved like a hit squad and felt it could do so.

 

He also told me about how, if there was a fight in a pub, they'd wait around the corner for half an hour then go and clear up afterwards - this might seem sensible in some ways but it displays a lack of care as to whether bystanders were getting injured or not.

 

Then, on a wider level, we also have Orgreave and the Rotherham scandal where again we have a mix of incompetence, indifference and outright snidey behaviour by the police.

I also know from speaking to older family members that there were often crushes at football grounds - sometimes a result of poor design and sometimes due to police behaviour. There was also an animosity from the police towards fans - one story I heard was of Leeds United fans kicking an ordinary Blades fans up and down the pavement, with the police saying to those asking for help - "What do you expect at a football match?"

 

I also heard how one of the top officials at the original inquest openly called the grieving relatives 'riff raff' who needed 'moving on' as they stood in the corridors of Sheffield Town Hall.

 

It may well be that Liverpool fan behaviour wasn't as good as gold (which group of fans ever is?) but it pales into complete insignificance when you consider the role of the British state. And we should all really be concerned about that because it could have been us on the receiving end.

 

I personally don't have much love for Liverpool fans - they seem to have this high opinion of themselves as the greatest club ever (when really they are just another fat cat Prem club that is killing game) and as some kind of noble champions of social justice - I get that to a point but what about the elephant in the room that is Heysel? But, having said this, I do support them fully in their campaign for justice with Hillsborough.

[Weshallovercome]

6 minutes ago, lukestheman82 said:

Surely, given that the powers that be accept that ticketless fans, albeit a small amount may have gained access on to Leppings Lane.

I would assume that some kind of maths genius could calculate the effect of how, even, say 1 average males height and weight could effect the force/pressure pushing down on the barriers.

If that could be worked out that even 1 person who shouldn't have been there had or had not even a minute effect on what happened then we would have a real answer as to whether ticketless fans could hold even a dot of blame?

 

 

I've always been dumbfounded why this eventuality wasn't addressed by quick release gates installed in the fencing.

 

A crush was always going to happen at some point.

[lukestheman82]

2 minutes ago, CEOwl said:

I always remember as a teenager, how I used to have a few pints with a mate's dad. He was a big Wednesdayite and a copper - a disillusioned one - and he was a great bloke.

He told me in detail about how, during the miner's strike, a fellow copper got floored by one of the ringleaders during a stand-off. So they got a van and chased him across a field, running him over and breaking his legs. Like I say, he was a great bloke but during the miner's strike he got swallowed up in an organisation that behaved like a hit squad and felt it could do so.

 

He also told me about how, if there was a fight in a pub, they'd wait around the corner for half an hour then go and clear up afterwards - this might seem sensible in some ways but it displays a lack of care as to whether bystanders were getting injured or not.

 

Then, on a wider level, we also have Orgreave and the Rotherham scandal where again we have a mix of incompetence, indifference and outright snidey behaviour by the police.

I also know from speaking to older family members that there were often crushes at football grounds - sometimes a result of poor design and sometimes due to police behaviour. There was also an animosity from the police towards fans - one story I heard was of Leeds United fans kicking an ordinary Blades fans up and down the pavement, with the police saying to those asking for help - "What do you expect at a football match?"

 

I also heard how one of the top officials at the original inquest openly called the grieving relatives 'riff raff' who needed 'moving on' as they stood in the corridors of Sheffield Town Hall.

 

It may well be that Liverpool fan behaviour wasn't as good as gold (which group of fans ever is?) but it pales into complete insignificance when you consider the role of the British state. And we should all really be concerned about that because it could have been us on the receiving end.

 

I personally don't have much love for Liverpool fans - they seem to have this high opinion of themselves as the greatest club ever (when really they are just another fat cat Prem club that is killing game) and as some kind of noble champions of social justice - I get that to a point but what about the elephant in the room that is Heysel? But, having said this, I do support them fully in their campaign for justice with Hillsborough.

Good post.

[Dick_Turpin]

18 minutes ago, lukestheman82 said:

Surely, given that the powers that be accept that ticketless fans, albeit a small amount may have gained access on to Leppings Lane.

I would assume that some kind of maths genius could calculate the effect of how, even, say 1 average males height and weight could effect the force/pressure pushing down on the barriers.

If that could be worked out that even 1 person who shouldn't have been there had or had not even a minute effect on what happened then we would have a real answer as to whether ticketless fans could hold even a dot of blame?

The problem wasn't the number of fans on the terrace. The HSE reckon the whole terrace was about the right capacity - hence Taylor et al's belief that ticketless fans weren't a huge problem. 

 

The issue was the central pens were way over capacity because the police believed the fans would set their own level and failed to monitor them properly. 

[lukestheman82]

3 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

The problem wasn't the number of fans on the terrace. The HSE reckon the whole terrace was about the right capacity - hence Taylor et al's belief that ticketless fans weren't a huge problem. 

 

The issue was the central pens were way over capacity because the police believed the fans would set their own level and failed to monitor them properly. 

yeah, I get that, but if 1,2 or 20 ticketless fans ended up in the central pens, then surely that has to have had an effect.

I don't argue at all that the Police and organisers hold the vast majority of blame, but if people that wasn't supposed to have been there, were there, then it surely has to had some effect, all be it minimal.

[Guest Ash76]

Can't be bothered getting in too deep as its a losing battle with the narrow minded and ignorant.

 

I remember arguing the case fans should not be blamed a good 6 or 7 years ago with someone I worked with. He went on to say 'you can't tell me anything, I was there saw it all'. I asked in what capacity. He told me he was a turnstile operator.

 

I couldnt believe it, asked him why that made him an expert considering he couldn't see outside or in the ground. Told me he saw the people coming in and they were drunk and abusive in the main, quoted about '90%' 

 

Asked if he'd ever had to give statements and he said not so told him was was full of sh*t

 

Amazing the lies people accept as the truth over the years, what's even worse is there are hundreds of Wednesday fans or local people that think they're an expert because they lived close by or knew someone that was there.

 

The facts are out there, documented by video evidence. Go and learn, open your mind

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ash76

[lukestheman82]

2 minutes ago, Ash76 said:

Can't be bothered getting in too deep as its a losing battle with the narrow minded and ignorant.

 

I remember arguing the case fans should not be blamed a good 6 or 7 years ago with someone I walked with. He went on to say 'you can't tell me anything, I was there so it all'. I asked in what capacity. He told me he was a turnstile operator.

 

I couldnt believe it, asked him why that made him an expert considering he couldn't see outside or in the ground. Told me he saw the people coming in and they were drunk and abusive in the main, quoted about '90%' 

 

Asked if he'd ever had to give statements and he said not so told him was was full of sh*t

 

Amazing the lies people accept as the truth over the years, what's even worse is there are hundreds of Wednesday fans or local people that think there an expert because they lived close by or knew someone that was there.

 

The facts are out there, documented by video evidence. Go and learn, open your mind

Tony Blair had documented evidence that Saddam Hussein had WOMD that could hit us within an hour.... I bet those that since lost their lives in Iraq are well chuffed that they learnt and opened their minds to a blatant lie.

[Dick_Turpin]

10 minutes ago, lukestheman82 said:

Tony Blair had documented evidence that Saddam Hussein had WOMD that could hit us within an hour.... I bet those that since lost their lives in Iraq are well chuffed that they learnt and opened their minds to a blatant lie.

So this is a conspiracy orchestrated by the rich and powerful to exonerate the poor and helpless - after a 20 year battle of course. Not the usual sort of conspiracy it has to be said.

 

[lukestheman82]

14 minutes ago, rickygoo said:

So this is a conspiracy orchestrated by the rich and powerful to exonerate the poor and helpless - after a 20 year battle of course. Not the usual sort of conspiracy it has to be said.

 

Lol.....No, don't be daft. I just mean that because it's supposedly proven by those in the know, it doesn't make it true.

I have stated numerous times that I think the Police and organisers are 99% to blame I just think it's a bit daft, PC, Apologist, whatever, to not accept that in even the tiniest bit of blame can not be apportioned to some Liverpool fans.

[Paolo Di Catio]

1 hour ago, Weshallovercome said:

 

 

I've always been dumbfounded why this eventuality wasn't addressed by quick release gates installed in the fencing.

 

A crush was always going to happen at some point.

Fences were designed to keep folk in no matter what. If safety was a thought, barriers/ fencing wouldn't have been put in.

[Dick_Turpin]

25 minutes ago, lukestheman82 said:

Lol.....No, don't be daft. I just mean that because it's supposedly proven by those in the know, it doesn't make it true.

I have stated numerous times that I think the Police and organisers are 99% to blame I just think it's a bit daft, PC, Apologist, whatever, to not accept that in even the tiniest bit of blame can not be apportioned to some Liverpool fans.

96 people died. The tiniest bit of blame isn't really the issue to me. The fundamental causes are. 

[Guest mkowl]

3 hours ago, rickygoo said:

 

Wise words. The new stuff post Taylor has been about police cover-up, the inadequacy of the medical/ambulance response and, for me, the detailed questioning re Wednesday's safety engineers but Taylor's broad conclusions have stood the test of time. 

 

 

If you read the Taylor Report then both SWFC and the safety engineers were criticised. What I have never got in this is that the reports in The Sun were published in the immediate days after. From memory there was an interim Taylor Report published fairly quickly and a final report thereafter. As I say all pretty damning and no blame attached to the fans.

 

The real concern I recall at the time was SWFC would get punished by the authorities, there may be prosecutions and there may be a financial impact on the Club.

 

The first Inquest was of course a sham but it must be remembered the cause was still accidental death. I don't see where ever other than in the first editions of The Sun that fans were blamed. The issue was that the families wanted an unlawful killing verdict. That is where the Justice movement  came from - but accidental death doesn't equate to fans being responsible. So I have never understood this fight to clear the fans names because apart from one newspaper no one has ever said this, certainly no official report has

 

What I also don't get is the lack of a media storm when the first Inquest result came out. Ok there was the police actions that concealed or manipulated evidence but I don't recall outrage at a verdict of accidental death. That seemed par for the course in light of other disasters - the key for the media was the lessons to be learned

[HIGHERSTATE]

Apparently John Barnes is in the stuff now because he was reviewing stories in the Sun on the Wright Stuff..

 

You know what, this crap will never go away..Nobody is allowed to have an opinion different to or criticize Liverpudlians..thats what wee wees people off.

[Dick_Turpin]

4 minutes ago, HIGHERSTATE said:

Apparently John Barnes is in the stuff now because he was reviewing stories in the Sun on the Wright Stuff..

 

You know what, this crap will never go away..Nobody is allowed to have an opinion different to or criticize Liverpudlians..thats what wee wees people off.

 

The Sun story was despicable - in the aftermath of almost a hundred deaths. Fair play to Liverpudlians for sticking to their guns on this. Should they embrace Murdoch and let bygones be bygones?