Anger as Pokemon Go uses SWFC Hillsborough memorial as 'Pokestop'

[LJH1867OWLS]

Growing up (I was born in late 87)

I was spoonfed "the truth" from the beginning about ticketless drunken fans smashing gates, rushing to the front & attacking bobbys and threw no fault of any of my friends and family I believed it!

Why wouldn't you? It's "the truth" after all and you trust them and their judgment.

now before anyone says Liverpool weren't Angels I've heard plenty of horror stories from friends and relatives visiting Anfield to know that and like most people it used 

to anger me when Hillsborough kept getting brought up! I used to find myself asking the same questions

Liverpool have previous why should I believe or care what they want?

why are they attacking the club I love?

What more do they want?

When will enough be enough? 

And so on and so on

I felt this way up until recently with the HIP findings (don't get me wrong the fact the bishop of Liverpool led this "independent" panel still annoys me to this day yet this very documentary posted in this thread was not allowed to be aired in the uk until after the findings incase it effected and altered the jury in the HIP.)

I downloaded this before the BBC aired it, i believe it's the same as the espn 30 for 30 film...

Now I'm quite unflappable when it come to TV I have never really seen anything in a film or a documentary that affected me to an extent but that shot at 37:49 from upping tier of the Leppings Lane end is horrific! Would you not want justice if that your father, mother, brother, sister etc DYING? Like that! Like animals in a pen! Once again I've been told stories of the way the police used to treat football fans And it's not pleasant 

However these VICTIMS weren't late, weren't drunk and weren't ticketless. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time stuck in a series on unfortunate events and let down by a man in charge who was clearly out of his depth (search for "the man under the table - Hillsborough") 

 

I respect other ther peoples opinions on the disaster and we are never gonna have a black and white statement this is what happened because of the emotions involved but I will say this people need to stop with this what can we be offended by next attitude in regards to Hillsborough this Pokemon go thing being the latest and just let sleeping dogs lie.

i will leave my post at this.

 

respect to the offices and fans on the ground that day who tried to save lives 

respect to the families of the 96 who (whether you agree or disagree) never stopped fighting for their loved ones 

and lastly rest in peace to the 96 football fans who went to a game and never got to go home.

Edited August 24, 2016 by LJH1867OWLS

[dowls]

57 minutes ago, DeeJayOne said:

Of course the late fans thing is completely moot because facts show that they couldn't get the anywhere near the number of PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT TICKETS through the amount of turnstiles available in the amount of time the turnstiles were open in any case.

 

There just weren't enough turnstiles available. 

 

Which led to the crush outside.

 

 

 

Ticketless fans or not. The crush was going to happen outside anyway.

 

 

 

Yes indeed, but human behavior led to the crush outside, aided by poor design, inept policing due to inexperience, and lack of delaying the kick off, but ultimately human behavior.

 

Go get on the first tram outside Hillsborough after a match ends if you doubt this statement.

[aeroswfc]

Might seem disrespectful but If kids are looking and they find It then It might educate them as well. 

[Orlando_Trustful]

2 hours ago, TAOWL267 said:

Scourers- Offended by everything and ashamed of nothing.

 

Celebrated their vindication in Hillsborough enquiry by travelling to Europa Final without tickets. Loads of forgeries used. Got in the Seville end and surprise surprise it all kicked off. Not another Heysel but they never learn.

Bang on. Classic scousers, but remember, they are the most 'passionate' fans in the world. 

[DeeJayOne]

1 hour ago, dowls said:

 

Yes indeed, but human behavior led to the crush outside, aided by poor design, inept policing due to inexperience, and lack of delaying the kick off, but ultimately human behavior.

 

Go get on the first tram outside Hillsborough after a match ends if you doubt this statement.

 

Wait... so the proven fundamental issue that too many tickets were sold for the number of available turnstiles to that area of the ground, meaning that fans couldn't be processed through quick enough and we're thus left outside wasn't the reason that the crush began happening outside?

 

You're actually saying this, even though it has been calculated and shown to be absolute fact?

 

 

[DeeJayOne]

In the half-hour before kick off, the approach to the Leppings Lane end quickly became congested.

The 10,100 fans with standing tickets were expected to enter the ground through just seven turnstiles and by 14.30, fewer than half were inside. As more and more fans arrived, the crush at the front of the queue became worse - leading to the fateful decision to open the gates.

 

There was no police cordon on the approaches to the stadium to ensure fans formed "orderly queues or only those with tickets came near the ground". At the previous year's FA Cup semi final at the stadium, police cordons were in place regulating the entry of supporters. The police match commander, Ch Supt David Duckenfield, admitted in evidence that he should have given "serious consideration to cordons".

 

Police had also closed some turnstiles to keep Liverpool and Nottingham Forest fans apart. This decision - and the design of the approach to the stand - combined to make the congestion worse. The number of fans passing through each turnstile was three times higher than at other turnstiles in the stadium. There was "clear evidence in the build-up to the match, both inside and outside the stadium, that turnstiles serving the Leppings Lane terrace could not process the required number of fans in time for the kick-off."

 

The area outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles was described as a "death trap" by former South Yorkshire Police inspector Gordon Sykes. He told the inquest the layout of the turnstiles had previously caused problems and the access route outside the ground meant fans would get "trapped" in corners or against fences and gates. "Up to 1989, I'm going to put it bluntly - we got away with it," he said.

 

As the congestion grew worse near the turnstiles and mounted officers struggled to keep control, a radio request was made for reinforcements at 14.44. Some 2,000 Liverpool supporters were still outside and Ch Supt Duckenfield gave the fateful order to "open the gates", letting fans into the ground.

 

 

 

[DeeJayOne]

Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game".

 

He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.

 

He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".

 

The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.

[DeeJayOne]

The Hillsborough Inquests heard an allegation that former SYP chief inspector 

Sir Norman Bettison had been asked to "concoct a story" that "all the Liverpool fans were drunk and that we were afraid they were going to break down the gates, so we decided to open them".

 

The Taylor Report, while accepting there was a "drunken minority" of fans, said they did not cause the congestion at the turnstiles. The coroner Sir John Goldring told the jury that more than half of the victims of the disaster had either no alcohol in their blood or an amount which was entirely negligible. Most of the others had levels "consistent with only modest social drinking before a sporting event".

 

His 1989 report said that, while many supporters who arrived at 2.30pm or after, had been drinking, the great majority "were not drunk nor even the worse for drink". Evidence from shops and off licences on the way to the ground "did not suggest a great amount of alcoholic drink was bought there".

 

Others described a generally normal crowd with an uncooperative minority who had drunk too much. He concluded that "drunkenness played no part in the disaster".

 

The panel found "no evidence... to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans".

 

The HIP jury found nothing to suggest that the behaviour of fans, drunken or otherwise, contributed to the disaster.

[DeeJayOne]

In fact.. Sod it. Go read it yourself. Do some Googling.

 

Maybe start at the inquest report and findings, which contains all the evidence, testimony and statements too: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk

 

Maybe properly start at the summary..: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/

 

Maybe even do some reading of David Conn, who has been investigating it for years: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by DeeJayOne

[Guest Grez Bez]

Back to the topic at hand

 

Who cares? Every war memorial in the country is one. How in any world is this disrespectful?

[lukestheman82]

23 minutes ago, DeeJayOne said:

He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground".

25 minutes ago, DeeJayOne said:

He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".

 

[lukestheman82]

surely that's slightly contradictory?

[coopswfc76]

Ok Deejay One you believe everything from this latest "Independent" enquiry we get it but why wont you leave others to have there opinions also?

 

To really believe that Liverpool fans played no part in the disaster is very naïve.

 

As I posted earlier the disaster was waiting to happen somewhere and all these factors led to the disaster happening -

 

The establishments view of football fans

Poor policing

Poor ground design

Poor behaviour of fans

 

All those were contributing factors and happened at all major games in the 80's to think otherwise is insane but the fact that SYP lied and changed initial statements is imo something that cant ever be forgotten as how many other times have the police done this kind of thing?

[Birley Owl 1867]

You can't argue with an 'independent' enquiry like that. 

 

In fact you can't argue with DeeJayOne as the fella always has to be right

[Cersei]

Was hoping for a Pokemon based discussion. :(

[lukestheman82]

6 minutes ago, Cersei said:

Was hoping for a Pokemon based discussion. :(

[bigthinrob]

2 hours ago, DeeJayOne said:

Of course the late fans thing is completely moot because facts show that they couldn't get the anywhere near the number of PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT TICKETS through the amount of turnstiles available in the amount of time the turnstiles were open in any case.

 

There just weren't enough turnstiles available. 

 

Which led to the crush outside.

 

 

 

Ticketless fans or not. The crush was going to happen outside anyway.

 

 

I'm sorry mate, no offence, it looks like i'm just looking for a reason to have a pop here, but you keep quoting figures, stats, evidence, without applying previous historical facts and a bit of common sense.

 

I was there that day as i was for most of the multitude of Semi's we hosted around that time.

 

You quote categorically that the 'crush' would have happened regardless of the numbers. Well maybe it would, but how come nothing like this happened before, with possibly one (nothing like as severe) exception.

 

People have eyes and a brain and should form their own opinions based on their experiences rather than slavishly taking on board what a group of people (judges etc) who probably had never been to a match, (certainly not stood on an 'end') tell them what happened. If you are too young to have experienced what life at football was like in those days then maybe you are not able to do this but those who are old enough to remember will be able to relate to it better.  Also too many people (possibly including the 'enquiry')  are applying the standards of the current day to events that happened then.

 

Again, i'm sorry, but it just seems to me it is reason after reason to justify what happened. 

 

This time it's insufficient number of turnstiles. If they had double the amount, treble the amount, quadruple the amount, would it have been enough? Not looking at the crush outside.

 

The obvious question, anyone with half a brain would normally ask is why, with minutes to go before kick off,  why were there so many people still outside when nearly every Forest fan had been in the ground for ages.

 

It seems to me they answered certain questions but completely ignored others, that to people who had been around regularly during those times were absolutely fundamental & obvious.

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddogbob]

10 minutes ago, Cersei said:

Was hoping for a Pokemon based discussion. :(

We've got a great one in the video games section.

[Maddogbob]

4 minutes ago, bigthinrob said:

I'm sorry mate, no offence, it looks like i'm just looking for a reason to have a pop here, but you keep quoting figures, stats, evidence, without applying previous historical facts and a bit of common sense.

 

I was there that day as i was for most of the multitude of Semi's we hosted around that time.

 

You quote categorically that the 'crush' would have happened regardless of the numbers. Well maybe it would, but how come nothing like this happened before, with possibly one (nothing like as severe) exception.

 

People have eyes and a brain and should form their own opinions based on their experiences rather than slavishly taking on board what a group of people (judges etc) who probably had never been to a match, (certainly not stood on an 'end') tell them what happened. If you are too young to have experienced what life at football was like in those days then maybe you are not able to do this but those who are old enough to remember will be able to relate to it better.  Also too many people (possibly including the 'enquiry')  are applying the standards of the current day to events that happened then.

 

Again, i'm sorry, but it just seems to me it is reason after reason to justify what happened. 

 

This time it's insufficient number of turnstiles. If they had double the amount, treble the amount, quadruple the amount, would it have been enough? Not looking at the crush outside.

 

The obvious question, anyone with half a brain would normally ask is why, with minutes to go before kick off,  why were there so many people still outside when nearly every Forest fan had been in the ground for ages.

 

It seems to me they answered certain questions but completely ignored others, that to people who had been around regularly during those times were absolutely fundamental & obvious.

 

 

 

 

 

It nearly happend with spurs fans a year or two earlier.

 

That day football got lucky.

 

I do however agree with some of your points.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Maddogbob

[dowls]

1 hour ago, DeeJayOne said:

In fact.. Sod it. Go read it yourself. Do some Googling.

 

Maybe start at the inquest report and findings, which contains all the evidence, testimony and statements too: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk

 

Maybe properly start at the summary..: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/

 

Maybe even do some reading of David Conn, who has been investigating it for years: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

 

 

 

sorry quote all you want, i have read those sources and indeed watched the program, made by a Wednesday fan by the way.

 

Stop getting angry.

 

The sources never looked at the dynamics of a crowd. I can start a crush in a tram que, yes just me by pushing.

Peterborough away was getting ridiculous for entry on the 5:30 kick off... do you know why? human behavior - i got bored of it and extracted myself and waited for it to die down.

 

Sadly due to design that wasn't an option for many in 89. But had people stood in a line there would of been no crush - but that rarely happens unless forced.