Almat Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) We weren't. We are talking about the quality of players not the kind of form they are in. At the end of last season a few of us went through the team and picked out those we thought could step up to the Championship. I think we named about 5. Buxton, Llera, JJ, Semedo were perhaps good shouts. Players like Beevers, Reda Madine CoG were unknowns at that level (as was Semy really). It was blindingly obvious an people mentioned it on here that we needed quite a few new faces. TBF to DJ he has given some of the old squad their chance. He also didn't foresee Lines getting injured followed by Reda and Buxton. So because of change that were needed, lack of form and then injuries big changes have had to be made at the back. I also personally question whether Semedo will make it at this level, but I'd be happily proven wrong in that. So has the heart been ripped out? Are we now playing 'without a heart' whatever that means? No, not IMO. And that's what it is my opinion. I think we have a stronger squad than last season but its in a very tough league with a lot of quality in other teams. The changes we've had to make would always be difficult but DJ is planning for the long season ahead not just the next 1 or 2 games. We have a break after Saturday then some tough as well as easier games ahead. I hope we get a goo result v Hull (every chance IMO) then head to the break and get some good training in in the 2 weeks before L33ds What's the point of that? Until they PROVE they are better than last season's players it's all supposition/speculation. It's not like it never happens that players who are doing well at one club, get transferred to another club and it doesn't work out, is it? It matters not how well they played at their previous club/s/how much better they are 'supposed' to be. We have a striker who cost what our loan striker reportedly earns in 2 months and he's outscoring him easily. That's the stats I am interested in until said striker makes me revise my opinion by scoring more. Edited October 4, 2012 by Almat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 We've got 1 point out of a possible 18 in the last 6 League games. Can you explain what has happened and whose fault it is then? The fans? I've been following football for far too long to be shocked or surprised by the pattern of results that teams have. So much so, that I'm not really so sure that the run like we've just can be so easily explained away in a simplistic way, especially when viewing the situation from the sidelines as we fans inevitably do. We are, after all, perhaps trying to explain the role of one of the great enigmas of sport - confidence. And certainly when a team such as ours goes from having it in droves to having a seemingly distinct lack of it in the space of a week, it does seem to scream out an irrepressible "WTF??!!" So, I'm not sure if I have an explanation either, in truth. But I'm not going to go banging my head against a brick wall looking for one. Confidence is a notoriously unfaithful mistress in sport, and one single defeat (especially after a long run such as ours) can be remarkably deflating to a team it would appear. It's not unreasonable to look toward the manager during a run such as September's, and question his role, but sometimes (and I think for the most part this is more an instance of this than not) this can be overstated. Certainly, there doesn't seem to be a single word of dissent against DJ coming from the players anyway. As with any winless streak though, the scrutiny will fall increasingly on the manager the longer it goes on. For the while though, I'm still very confident in DJ's abilities to turn this around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 What's the point of that? Until they PROVE they are better than last season's players it's all supposition/speculation. It's not like it never happens that players who are doing well at one club, get transferred to another club and it doesn't work out, is it? It matters not how well they played at their previous club/s/how much better they are 'supposed' to be. We have a striker who cost what our loan striker reportedly earns in 2 months and he's outscoring him easily. That's the stats I am interested in until said striker makes me revise my opinion by scoring more. How can you judge one player against another like that when they're playing in different leagues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 you really cant be this thick, can you? read all the flipping post I must be incredibly thick then. Even after reading your post many times over, I'm still struggling to understand how a side without heart can display heart nevertheless. We even had the same starting 11 against Burnley as we did against Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almat Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 How can you judge one player against another like that when they're playing in different leagues? I'm close to giving up on you, TBH, but I'll give it one last try. Unless I am living in some strange parallel universe COG and Bothroyd are not only playing in the same league but also, amazingly, the same team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 We weren't. We are talking about the quality of players not the kind of form they are in. At the end of last season a few of us went through the team and picked out those we thought could step up to the Championship. I think we named about 5. Buxton, Llera, JJ, Semedo were perhaps good shouts. Players like Beevers, Reda Madine CoG were unknowns at that level (as was Semy really). It was blindingly obvious an people mentioned it on here that we needed quite a few new faces. TBF to DJ he has given some of the old squad their chance. He also didn't foresee Lines getting injured followed by Reda and Buxton. So because of change that were needed, lack of form and then injuries big changes have had to be made at the back. I also personally question whether Semedo will make it at this level, but I'd be happily proven wrong in that. So has the heart been ripped out? Are we now playing 'without a heart' whatever that means? No, not IMO. And that's what it is my opinion. I think we have a stronger squad than last season but its in a very tough league with a lot of quality in other teams. The changes we've had to make would always be difficult but DJ is planning for the long season ahead not just the next 1 or 2 games. We have a break after Saturday then some tough as well as easier games ahead. I hope we get a goo result v Hull (every chance IMO) then head to the break and get some good training in in the 2 weeks before L33ds you see i agree with just about all you say, really i do, a lot of it makes sense, in my opinion some of it is tripe, but thats good, thats what makes being a fan so good, disagreeing with fellow fans about the finer points is what football is all about. then you put something that sets me off like the sentence ive highlighted. because last year you and your cronies decided that only 5 players out of our squad were any good it must be gospel, let me tell you son it isnt, let me tell you a secret your decision to write off the careers of 80% of our promotion squad means flip all, not only is it wrong, i think it shows an arrogance that really i dont understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) I must be incredibly thick then. Even after reading your post many times over, I'm still struggling to understand how a side without heart can display heart nevertheless. We even had the same starting 11 against Burnley as we did against Wolves. you really are thick, now please go away and annoy someone else Edited October 4, 2012 by scarboro-owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 How can you judge one player against another like that when they're playing in different leagues? you did it last year when you wrote our entire promotion winning squad off except 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totemowl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) What's the point of that? Until they PROVE they are better than last season's players it's all supposition/speculation. It's not like it never happens that players who are doing well at one club, get transferred to another club and it doesn't work out, is it? It matters not how well they played at their previous club/s/how much better they are 'supposed' to be. We have a striker who cost what our loan striker reportedly earns in 2 months and he's outscoring him easily. That's the stats I am interested in until said striker makes me revise my opinion by scoring more. Can't help but think you've got some of the fundamentals wrong. You seem to be suggesting that we, the fans, the manager and everyone else should ignore a player's history, until he's proven that at this club he is better than the incumbents? How exactly is he supposed to do that. And also, you are saying that goalscoring form comes before quality, so when it comes to strikers etc it's not the quality of their play that counts, not their presence, not how they bring other players into the game, but it's simply down to whether they stick the ball in the net. Personally I'd prefer a fit 25 year old David Hirst to a journeyman 3rd tier striker any day. Edited October 4, 2012 by totemowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 you really are thick Care to explain why? Because it appears to me that I've spotted a contradiction in your ramblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 because last year you and your cronies decided that only 5 players out of our squad were any good it must be gospel, let me tell you son it isnt, Firstly, I haven't stooped into making personal insults. As I'm mid 40s and your calling me son I guess you're approaching retirement and therefor suffering from early onset of altzimers?? Second, I didn't say only 5 of last years squad were 'any good'. What I listed was who I / we thought were good enough to step up. Now, out of the players l listed then who, in your opinion have missed out? Who from last season in your opinion hasn't been given a chance to show they can do it at this level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almat Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Can't help but think you've got some of the fundamentals wrong. You seem to be suggesting that we, the fans, the manager and everyone else should ignore a player's history, until he's proven that at this club he is better than the incumbents? How exactly is he supposed to do that. And also, you are saying that goalscoring form comes before quality, so when it comes to strikers etc it's not the quality of their play that counts, not their presence, not how they bring other players into the game, but it's simply down to whether they stick the ball in the net. Personally I'd prefer a fit 25 year old David Hirst to a 3rd tier striker any day. Strikers that command high fees do so because they score goals. Goals change games. You can have the worst of a match in just about every aspect but get rescued by a natural goalscorer. I don't even know why I am even having to say this, it's just so flipping obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Scarboro - chill out with the insults fella Not necessary mate WAWAW ? Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totemowl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 you see i agree with just about all you say, really i do, a lot of it makes sense, in my opinion some of it is tripe, but thats good, thats what makes being a fan so good, disagreeing with fellow fans about the finer points is what football is all about. then you put something that sets me off like the sentence ive highlighted. because last year you and your cronies decided that only 5 players out of our squad were any good it must be gospel, let me tell you son it isnt, let me tell you a secret your decision to write off the careers of 80% of our promotion squad means flip all, not only is it wrong, i think it shows an arrogance that really i dont understand I really don't get that. So would you also say that the club was arrogant to sell Lowe and Jones onto other L1 clubs? And are you being arrogant earlier in this thread when you said Gardner and Taylor are the worse CB pairing in this division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I'm close to giving up on you, TBH, but I'll give it one last try. Unless I am living in some strange parallel universe COG and Bothroyd are not only playing in the same league but also, amazingly, the same team. I thought we were comparing last seasons squad to this seasons, in the context of how they played / are playing now. It's obvious CoG has more than earned his shirt this season. I thinks it's equally obvious that ON HIS DAY Bothroyd is a better player. But JB isn't showing it for some reason, not yet anyway. Hopefully he'll come good, we can only benefit from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I really don't get that. So would you also say that the club was arrogant to sell Lowe and Jones onto other L1 clubs? And are you being arrogant earlier in this thread when you said Gardner and Taylor are the worse CB pairing in this division? As is always the case on here it's about opinions. As I keep stating. Then people come along with sweeping generalisations and claim they KNOW better. It's been like that for 10 years on OT and it'll continue to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almat Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I thought we were comparing last seasons squad to this seasons, in the context of how they played / are playing now. It's obvious CoG has more than earned his shirt this season. I thinks it's equally obvious that ON HIS DAY Bothroyd is a better player. But JB isn't showing it for some reason, not yet anyway. Hopefully he'll come good, we can only benefit from that. You must have quoted the wrong post, I guess. Question: if we play 4-5-1 and require just one striker, on current form who would it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Firstly, I haven't stooped into making personal insults. As I'm mid 40s and your calling me son I guess you're approaching retirement and therefor suffering from early onset of altzimers?? Second, I didn't say only 5 of last years squad were 'any good'. What I listed was who I / we thought were good enough to step up. Now, out of the players l listed then who, in your opinion have missed out? Who from last season in your opinion hasn't been given a chance to show they can do it at this level? when did i insult you? i said you showed arrogance and you thought only your opinion counted, that might be a little insulting but its true you made judgements on last years squad using your opinion, im sorry if this comes as a shock, but your opinion about Wednesday is worthless, just like mine, you are a fan, just like me and the op, remember it was the op you insulted with your opening remarks, "deluded" u called him, and anyone who agreed with him, "simply ridiculous" you said his post was, what gives an also ran like you the right to talk to people like that? do you thing people approaching retirement should be ridiculed and insulted? even a mega poster like yourself detached from reality must admit that DJ hasn't given last years team, or megsons men if you believe the conspiracy theory any credance, and its alzheimers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 You must have quoted the wrong post, I guess. Question: if we play 4-5-1 and require just one striker, on current form who would it be? CoG of course. If we have Antonio / JJ on either flank. Didn't CoG play wide left again midweek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Scarboro - chill out with the insults fella Not necessary mate WAWAW ? who have i insulted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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