scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Which of our signings has less ability than a player from last season? Gardner/ Taylor, the experience and level they've played at, are they worse than Beevers, Llera or Rob Jones???? Is Mattock worse than Bennett? McCabe worse than Lines?? Come on let's have your run down of players that are better than what we've signed Gardener and Taylor are the worst center half pairing in this division, if you dont believe me tell me one worse, and i mean on grass not flipping paper, no Mattock isnt worse than Bennett, but why doesnt Jones rate him, why pick Dan Jones in front of him, its a sorry state of affairs if our much more skillful summer signings cant displace the league 1 players that deluded fans think should be given a go, no one on this planet could argue with the signing of McCabe, a coup simple as that, you harp on about players being better class, i dont need to prove the class of the team from last year, they already did that, and they will always have my full support, primarily the signings from the summer are young untried and with bags of potential, and they get my full support too, who dont get my support, are the players brought in by DJ at the death and played game after game despite dropping rounduns upon rounduns and/or displacing young promising players we own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Briscoe Inferno Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Let me throw this in.... There should no doubt that the calibre of individual player Jones/MM has brought in is higher this season. The problem, for whateverever reason, is the deplyoment, interaction and application of those players within the team and other squad members. CoGs strength and ability to hold the ball up and bring others into play when played in the right position can allow other players of a higher callibre to express themselves - you have to earn the right to play and get a foothold in the game. No coincidence that a player who has plied his trade in the lower divisions allowed Bothroyd & Barkley to have their best games yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorian gray Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Which of our signings has less ability than a player from last season? Gardner/ Taylor, the experience and level they've played at, are they worse than Beevers, Llera or Rob Jones???? Is Mattock worse than Bennett? McCabe worse than Lines?? Come on let's have your run down of players that are better than what we've signed i'll answer that question from my point of view... i had hoped that any, and all new signings would be of a good enough state of ability, that when compared to last season's team/squad we would see the gulf in class, and have no argument about their level of ability... whilst the new arrivals do in places appear to be an improvement, the backline looks to be a minefield... ok, we seem to have an unprecedented amount of injuries at f/b, but, the centreback situation looks like a dog's dinner... for me, we've brought 2 in who are too much alike... i see very little speedy mobility in the central pair, and i find it a concern... for me if you're playing a big goliath at c/b, he needs a mobile mate (i did figure that was why dj didn't like baath, his final choices shat on that assumption)... if you are playing 2 big c/b's, then they need ground support, and for that task semedo needs help in there... 2 defensive m/f's, to allow the less than mobile c/b's to hold their position better and longer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almat Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Saying the 'heart has been ripped out of the squad' is a very emotive way of putting what has actually happened though. It implies a level of criticism that, in my opinion, seems unjust. He has made changes to the squad, of course, and subsequently some players have left - I'm really not sure if that constitutes the team having had its 'heart ripped out'. After all, Semedo, Antonio, JJ, COG, Llera, Beevers, Madine, Reda, Buxton, and Lines are still either in and around the team or injured. We've got 1 point out of a possible 18 in the last 6 League games. Can you explain what has happened and whose fault it is then? The fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Saying the 'heart has been ripped out of the squad' is a very emotive way of putting what has actually happened though. It implies a level of criticism that, in my opinion, seems unjust. He has made changes to the squad, of course, and subsequently some players have left - I'm really not sure if that constitutes the team having had its 'heart ripped out'. After all, Semedo, Antonio, JJ, COG, Llera, Beevers, Madine, Reda, Buxton, and Lines are still either in and around the team or injured. the heart isnt only players its a vibe, a passion, a determination like we showed against Burnley, a belief that if you play well you'll get the shirt, a belief that every position is up for grabs not occupied week in week out by loanees despite how they might perform, standing 3/4 the way up the kop and being told what its like for us, thats the heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Briscoe Inferno Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 for me, we've brought 2 in who are too much alike... i see very little speedy mobility in the central pair, and i find it a concern... for me if you're playing a big goliath at c/b, he needs a mobile mate (i did figure that was why dj didn't like baath, his final choices shat on that assumption)... if you are playing 2 big c/b's, then they need ground support, and for that task semedo needs help in there... 2 defensive m/f's, to allow the less than mobile c/b's to hold their position better and longer... Precisely dnhc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) Let me throw this in.... There should no doubt that the calibre of individual player Jones/MM has brought in is higher this season. The problem, for whateverever reason, is the deplyoment, interaction and application of those players within the team and other squad members. CoGs strength and ability to hold the ball up and bring others into play when played in the right position can allow other players of a higher callibre to express themselves - you have to earn the right to play and get a foothold in the game. No coincidence that a player who has plied his trade in the lower divisions allowed Bothroyd & Barkley to have their best games yet. exactly 100% right, integrating the two, we should have been doing that since day 1 Edited October 4, 2012 by scarboro-owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Gardener and Taylor are the worst center half pairing in this division, if you dont believe me tell me one worse, and i mean on grass not flipping paper. You see that's where you lose the argument. Have you seen every CB partnership in this division to make that assessment?? No it's just a throw away comment to back your comments earlier. We were discussing single players, not partnerships. Maybe they won't gell hopefully they will. So, referring back to the original question I posed AND to some extent the reason for this thread. Which players he's brought in are worse than what we had last season? Cos so far you've come up with a big fat zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pops55 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) cos he scored goal number 2 and 3 maybe? Thats right so if he was there how did he miss that. Edited October 4, 2012 by pops55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thats right so if he was there how did he miss that. Oh FFS. I didn't miss it, I was lining him up for the inevitable argument 'he scores so he should play'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pops55 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Ok. He scored 2 goals yet the defence conceded 2. And conceded an average of more than 2 a game whilst he's played - yes I know that goes for other defenders too but we're talking about Llera. It's the same argument that gets thrown in for Reda. He might not be the best but he scores. Llera is a defender. DJ singled him out for criticism which is why he was dropped. I saw us v Bolton and Wolves and thought overall we defended better than we have. Didn't go to Burnley but I've seen the goals. I think DJ will stick with the two CBs who have played at this level before an quite rightly. Once Buxton is back I hope that'll settle the back 4 even more. I've still got faith in DJ especially over unqualified fans who have no faith and have easily forgotten what A bloody good manager he is. Did you have faith in Alan Irvine and his coaching badges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almat Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 You see that's where you lose the argument. Have you seen every CB partnership in this division to make that assessment?? No it's just a throw away comment to back your comments earlier. We were discussing single players, not partnerships. Maybe they won't gell hopefully they will. So, referring back to the original question I posed AND to some extent the reason for this thread. Which players he's brought in are worse than what we had last season? Cos so far you've come up with a big fat zero. If you are talking about current form most of them TBH. Bothroyd has been brought in to score goals, he hasn't scored one yet even though he's started every game. Taylor has been brought in to improve the defence - he demonstrably hasn't and he's replaced a defender who actually scored goals/took dead balls. Antonio was a Megson spot. Rodri is frankly not what we need in this League. Barkley has been sent to us to 'develop' him but imo is again not what we need in this League and especially in the predicament we find ourselves. Gardner is a decent signing imo as long as he beats his injury jinx. Kirkland too. How many more are there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsheri Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Ok. He scored 2 goals yet the defence conceded 2. And conceded an average of more than 2 a game whilst he's played - yes I know that goes for other defenders too but we're talking about Llera. It's the same argument that gets thrown in for Reda. He might not be the best but he scores. Llera is a defender. DJ singled him out for criticism which is why he was dropped. I saw us v Bolton and Wolves and thought overall we defended better than we have. Didn't go to Burnley but I've seen the goals. I think DJ will stick with the two CBs who have played at this level before an quite rightly. Once Buxton is back I hope that'll settle the back 4 even more. I've still got faith in DJ especially over unqualified fans who have no faith and have easily forgotten what A bloody good manager he is. We were talking about the Millwall game though. He scored 2 to win us the game. I think Jones is a very good manager but i'm a bit baffled by some of the decisions.I also think he is slightly lost without burton. Just my view.And i think the players need to realise how lucky they are to be playing in front of 26,000fans at a tremendous stadium, and the away support blitzes most teams in this league.We do our flippingbit and have done for years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 the heart isnt only players its a vibe, a passion, a determination like we showed against Burnley, a belief that if you play well you'll get the shirt, a belief that every position is up for grabs not occupied week in week out by loanees despite how they might perform, standing 3/4 the way up the kop and being told what its like for us, thats the heart So...he hasn't ripped the heart of the side after all, then?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 We were talking about the Millwall game though. He scored 2 to win us the game. And was at fault for one and arguably both Millwalls goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 You see that's where you lose the argument. Have you seen every CB partnership in this division to make that assessment?? No it's just a throw away comment to back your comments earlier. We were discussing single players, not partnerships. Maybe they won't gell hopefully they will. So, referring back to the original question I posed AND to some extent the reason for this thread. Which players he's brought in are worse than what we had last season? Cos so far you've come up with a big fat zero. now who is using selective quoting, i didnt think you'd try to answer my question your question has been answered many times by members on here, and teams that DJ has fielded, but full points for trying to bully other users with your post count, you were wrong to have a dig at the op, if you bothered to read other posts you'd see what the heart is, and how its been ripped out, if you cant understand that then im wasting my time, as for the rest of it, well thats just opinions, i have mine, and i try to respect others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pops55 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 And was at fault for one and arguably both Millwalls goals. How many games have we won since Llera has not been in the side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarboro-owl Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 So...he hasn't ripped the heart of the side after all, then?! you really cant be this thick, can you? read all the flipping post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essix Blue Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If you are talking about current form most of them TBH. We weren't. We are talking about the quality of players not the kind of form they are in. At the end of last season a few of us went through the team and picked out those we thought could step up to the Championship. I think we named about 5. Buxton, Llera, JJ, Semedo were perhaps good shouts. Players like Beevers, Reda Madine CoG were unknowns at that level (as was Semy really). It was blindingly obvious an people mentioned it on here that we needed quite a few new faces. TBF to DJ he has given some of the old squad their chance. He also didn't foresee Lines getting injured followed by Reda and Buxton. So because of change that were needed, lack of form and then injuries big changes have had to be made at the back. I also personally question whether Semedo will make it at this level, but I'd be happily proven wrong in that. So has the heart been ripped out? Are we now playing 'without a heart' whatever that means? No, not IMO. And that's what it is my opinion. I think we have a stronger squad than last season but its in a very tough league with a lot of quality in other teams. The changes we've had to make would always be difficult but DJ is planning for the long season ahead not just the next 1 or 2 games. We have a break after Saturday then some tough as well as easier games ahead. I hope we get a goo result v Hull (every chance IMO) then head to the break and get some good training in in the 2 weeks before L33ds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorian gray Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Ok. He scored 2 goals yet the defence conceded 2. And conceded an average of more than 2 a game whilst he's played - yes I know that goes for other defenders too but we're talking about Llera. It's the same argument that gets thrown in for Reda. He might not be the best but he scores. Llera is a defender. DJ singled him out for criticism which is why he was dropped. I saw us v Bolton and Wolves and thought overall we defended better than we have. Didn't go to Burnley but I've seen the goals. I think DJ will stick with the two CBs who have played at this level before an quite rightly. Once Buxton is back I hope that'll settle the back 4 even more. I've still got faith in DJ especially over unqualified fans who have no faith and have easily forgotten what A bloody good manager he is. when dj took over he had a sensational end to the season, there can be no argument to that, however i did notice at the time he had allowed our taller players more freedom at set pieces than megson did, and it appeared to show less reward for doing so... i wondered at the time, is he doing it because he's see's more threat in the players being free to make runs in the penalty area, or to break up what megson has done, (i hoped it wasn't the latter)... early on against oldham we were shocking, and it took an infusion of last season's grit to turn the tide... after picking up 7 from 9 points early on, the removal of megson's and irvine's players, to be replaced with dj own choices has not worked as well as he, and we would hope... he can surely see what we see, and it may be that he needs a good result in the next 3 to go forward... assuming milan keeps faith with him (and i think he may), then if dj can turn this present mess ( in all honesty) around, THEN i'll be more inclined to think, what a bloody good manager he is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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