sjtheowl Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 At the end of the day while not a lot of the goals have been Kirkland's fault (I felt he could have done better at Palace, with the 1st goal especially) he has still conceded a huge volume of goals whether that be down to poor organisation or poor goalkeeping. Bywater has come in, played one game against the highest ranked opposition who we have played this season and kept a clean sheet and looked very comfortable. You've got to give him a chance. If we play Kirkland, week after week after week, conceding 2/3 goals a game, what the hell is Bywater going to be thinking? Give him a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdan2003 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Where's the evidence to suggest that Bywater organises the defence better? I like them both, they're both good keepers. But Kirkland hasn't put a foot wrong imo, certainly not enough drop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Cannister Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Kirkland - quality shotstopper - couldn't do anything about tonights goals BUT Bywater - is he a better organiser of the back 4 ? If so - could we help the defensive situation by playing him ? Or we could leave Kirkland in goal and get a decent centre half to organise the back 4.............radical eh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest andyofsheffield Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 We have had a discussion about this at work this morning. Yes Kirkland appears to do nothing wrong, it's just a question if Bywater is better at organising his defence, hense the lack of conceded goals against Fulham. And I thought Kirkland could have come out and claimed that 2nd goal yesterday as it floated through his six yard box, but that may just be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StamfordOwl Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Interesting topic....... all that needs to be said is:- THE ONLY CLEAN SHEET THIS SEASON WAS WITH BYWATER IN GOAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wednesday_Jack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 What a silly discussion this is...some people are so blind by arguments like this it is unreal. Bywater or Kirkland...please get a grip!! No keeper in the world could play behind that back four at the moment and keep a clean sheet. IMO Kirkland has kept the scorelines respectable. This is my opinion of what is wrong: Mattock - cant really comment as i havnt seen him play...inst he left footed?? looked uncomfortable at right back untill he got sent off last night Taylor - is he really what we need. good in the air terrible on the floor and no pace and 30/31/32 years of age?? Beevers - OMG...not a championship player by any stretch of the imagination. Not the best in the air, not the best on the floor and no pace - average is been generous! Reda - Love the guy to bits...cult hero but ability wise the worst left back i have seen. He has to score goals to make up for the poo poo creates at the back. Llera - Superb guy and a major inlence last year and will never forget the freekick at Huddersfield and his header away at Brentford...not what we need this year. Buxton - Last year again superb...between him and samedo for my POY but he is going to suffer this season unfortunatley. no pace and will find himself chasing shaddows! People say the keep should organise the back four???? what a load of F*****G rubbish, these guys are professional footballers, grown men not kids!! They should be good enough to organise themselves as outfield players. If thats the case who should orgainse the midfield? Who should organise the strikers. The problem is that the back four is just not good enough and people need to realise that ASAP. To many teams have pace on the wings and up front in this division and they will tear that back four apart at will!! Until JJ went to right back we had no control over there front 3/4 attacking players wether that was from the wing or down the middle. CB and a FB (both with pace) as soon as IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest crossy-the-owl Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Dont make a difference which keeper is playing, as long as defence a playing sh!te were goin to keep leeking goals, kirkland for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexwatson12 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 His shot stopping is levels above Bywater, and I have yet to see anything in Kirkland's game that worries me even in the slightest. I agree. He's made some cracking saves and I don't think better organisation from the keeper is what's needed to sort out the defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgileBeastt Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Like someone has already said i don't think anyone can choose untill bywater has had his turn between the sticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malek Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I think that Kirkland never did anything wrong, and certainly aint one to blame for recent run of bad results. Still, why not trying with Bywater ?! He has reputation as a good talker who organises his defenders well. I think that keeper can do a lot to inspire confidence in his back line, and who knows, just might Bywater can do the trick. It is not like with him in the net, we will concede much more then 3 per game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owl999 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Anyone that has played football at a decent standard will tell you the importance of a keepers comunication, that's not happening at the moment, the same as it wasn't with weaver, the only position in defence DJ hasn't changed apart from Fulham in the cup is the goalkeeper, where Bywater kept a clean sheet with a worse back 4 in front of him, Kirkland and Weaver are both great shot stoppers but that's only part of a keepers job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdan2003 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm sure there were people on her slating Bywater following the 4-4 draw with 'udders last season..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manor Owl Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Either goalie with an organised back 4. A utd mate at work says the problem is we have too many players. They are not organised because of changes every week. BTW Dave has to admit that he got it wrong with Danny" the hoofer". Also selling Rob Jones was not a brilliant move. You have to wonder how many "possible" signings were in the pipeline at that time. I have moaned about fullbacks all last season. First two signings were fullbacks Lee and Mattock so I thought fine. Then Buxton & Reda were allocated 2 & 3 which was highly significant. Bywater, Lee (!) etc should play against Soton in the cup. Another cleansheet by Bywater would be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorian gray Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) at the start of this ongoing epic a few games ago i cast my vote for kirkland... i decided that because i felt we needed our best, youngest, fittest, most agile keeper in goal, the one most likely to make a telling save...... however, having read the posts on here, i'm changing my mind... i think now it is essential that we have someone between the posts who likes to lark around, have a laugh, pull a stroke... someone, who's a bit of a jack the lad, but can shout at the defence... 'cos lets face it, the defenders will know jacksh*t about defending without bywater there to tell them... besides i'm sure conceding 6 or 7 a game for a few weeks will be just what we need... Edited September 20, 2012 by dnhc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorian gray Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I'm sure there were people on her slating Bywater following the 4-4 draw with 'udders last season..... he had a f**kin MARE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorian gray Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Anyone that has played football at a decent standard will tell you the importance of a keepers comunication, that's not happening at the moment, the same as it wasn't with weaver, the only position in defence DJ hasn't changed apart from Fulham in the cup is the goalkeeper, where Bywater kept a clean sheet with a worse back 4 in front of him, Kirkland and Weaver are both great shot stoppers but that's only part of a keepers job. in a top quality side, that's true... but in the championship, and at the other end of the table, not so... a back 4 will settle for a quality keeper behind them, and the best way for the keeper to prove that is pulling off top drawer saves... you don't need someone shouting the odds like the c**ts in charge, and you know nothing...... or before long someone will be offering to fill it for him... to suggest that bywater is capable of getting his defensive co-ordinators messages across to his defence during the heat of a game, and whilst they are holding a line outside the penalty area is a joke... the senior centre back should be issuing the instructions if anyone (though it's not outa the question for the keeper, or anyone else to chip in if they see a runner)... we are talking here at a professional game played in front of a crowd, with noise from the opposition support at a height because they are attacking, and are around our penalty area... NO, this great gift bywater will bring does not exist... let us hope our cup opponents will be trying next time around, and we'll be better able to judge him, thought it will be in front of a much smaller crowd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pwilkysowls Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 kirkland is quality ffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wednesday_Jack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Anyone that has played football at a decent standard will tell you the importance of a keepers comunication, that's not happening at the moment, the same as it wasn't with weaver, the only position in defence DJ hasn't changed apart from Fulham in the cup is the goalkeeper, where Bywater kept a clean sheet with a worse back 4 in front of him, Kirkland and Weaver are both great shot stoppers but that's only part of a keepers job. I agree to a certain extent but the keeper also has his own organisation and positioning to think about without thinking about the 4 idiots in front of him...the fact of the matter is every player should be able to think for themselves not rely on someone telling them whats going off or needs to be done. The back four should communicate between itself and it should organise its self...i keep asking the question, who organises the midfield and the strikers?? I would say they organise themselves or i that the keepers fault as well?? I dont always buy into the comment 'it needs to be a settled back four' i agree it helps but who ever plays alongside each other see enough of each other in training to understand what needs to happen and certain times. Concentration is key and unfortunatley our back four has the concentration of a toddler. The common fact whether we like it or not i just dont think the back four is good enough for this league no matter who plays. We miss Batth and i personally think its showing, regardless of what league it was last year he was solid. We need to look at getting some pace in the back four or we will be conceeding 2/3 goals 3 out of 5 games becuase alot of championship teams play with two fast/tricky wingers and a fast guy upfront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BoomTownOwls Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Kirkland has been the only positive thing about Wednesday from a defensive point of view. None of the goals seem to have been due to a mix up between him and the defence. The defence not being organised is not his fault. I don't see what Bywater would have been able to do about having no right back, a centre half at left back, an ever changing back four and a team with two wingers providing no security for our out of position full backs. People just like a scapegoat and Kirkland provides an easy differential for the brain dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BoomTownOwls Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 , the only position in defence DJ hasn't changed apart from Fulham in the cup is the goalkeeper, where Bywater kept a clean sheet with a worse back 4 in front of him . You could just as easily say DJ should play Kirkland with the back four that played against Fulham. One thing I do know is that I would far rather have somebody in net who can save shots. And how exactly do you know that Kirkland is not communicating well with the back four? I can't think of any times when there appears to have been a mix up between the defence and him. Kirkland seemed to be doing a lot of shouting and talking to the back four last night!!! Has Beevers told you that Bywater is the best communicator or have you just made it up? For all we know in the stands, the defenders might think Bywater spouts poo pooe! Have you asked them or are you just making stuff up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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