SAG - Irritating but necessary

[Guest Deleted member]

 

 

I understand concourse sizes, exit routes, number of exits etc all have to be taken into specific account but there is no way anyone can tell me some of the grounds we have been to recently aren't potentially more dangerous than ours on some of those aspects.

 

Also, we have recently used some of the areas of our ground without any issues yet these are being restricted now. The club have asked what they can do to change things, have done as advised and have then seen the goal posts moved.

 

The concourse at Rotherham last week was tiny. But then so is the capacity of the away end. There will be equations based on computer simulations of exit times, minimum exit times required, and then maximum amount of supporters allowed to fulfil those targets.

 

The club have virtually admitted that SAG were right to reduce our capacity - by stating they have worked to make improvements in order to hopefully get the capacity increased back to 36k.  What that suggests is that the previous capacity was wrong and had an incident occurred we could have been held responsible.

[Inspector Lestrade]

 

 

The concourse at Rotherham last week was tiny. But then so is the capacity of the away end. There will be equations based on computer simulations of exit times, minimum exit times required, and then maximum amount of supporters allowed to fulfil those targets.

 

The club have virtually admitted that SAG were right to reduce our capacity - by stating they have worked to make improvements in order to hopefully get the capacity increased back to 36k.  What that suggests is that the previous capacity was wrong and had an incident occurred we could have been held responsible.

 

 

I don't think it follows that the club necessarily agrees wth SAG, it would be bad policy by the club not to follow their recommendations.

 

Unfortunately, we are in the position if SAG says jump we have to.

[Guest]

 

 

The concourse at Rotherham last week was tiny. But then so is the capacity of the away end. There will be equations based on computer simulations of exit times, minimum exit times required, and then maximum amount of supporters allowed to fulfil those targets.

 

The club have virtually admitted that SAG were right to reduce our capacity - by stating they have worked to make improvements in order to hopefully get the capacity increased back to 36k.  What that suggests is that the previous capacity was wrong and had an incident occurred we could have been held responsible.

 

The fact that the club may take action above and beyond the normal course of discussions on these matters should an agreement not be reached at the next meeting and the answers provided last night suggests that we are being ordered to go above and beyond the required statistical expectations.

[robowl4life]

We're paying the price for a football game that was hosted at our stadium, where a rare one off tragic event is still biting us on our arse. Yet the main culprits got off scotch free and had nothing to do with the contribution to it. 

 

Always one that spoils it for us all. 

[Guest]

 

Are we being treated differently to any other clubs ?

Biggsy should do some investigative work to find out 

[Buxtongent]

Not being of sound body, to say nothing of the mind,I have to walk with two sticks. I leave my seat Z196, which is in the back row  of the second block from the Kop, in the south stand. I walk slowly to the entrance (70 seats + 1 Gangway) down onto the concourse via a) 10steps b) toilet c) back to top of stairs (equivalent to 80 seats =1 gangway), down 25 steps, out into the pathway and out through the gates on Penistone Road, I then walk through the crowds towards the crossing at bottom of Herries Road. (20 minutes shuffle?) by which time the main exit gate on the Kop are being closed, so the difficulty is certainly not in the time it takes to evacuate the Kop, or even the South Stand. Last Saturday, after crossing Penistone Road, between the corner and the entrance to the W'ite car park I passed three groups of Newcastle supporters, who must have exited by the West stand, and walked down Vere Road,and crossed over. The problem is not exiting the ground if this is done in orderly fashion, it is in the segregation policy that we adopt.

The start of the problem was not in EXITING the ground, but in trying to ENTER the ground in vast numbers in a very short time.

.  

[Guest Deleted member]

The SAG Group only exists as a result of the Taylor Report - which only existed as a result of a major incident that cost the lives of nearly a hundred people, in OUR stadium.

 

Every council in the country now has a SAG - because of the same reasons.  The SAG consists of;

 

Head of Licensing (Chairs the meetings - and issues our Certificate)

our Stadium Manager

SYP

SY Fire & Rescue

Y Ambulance Service

Council Building Standards

Council Health Protection Scheme

 

It is a requirement that all individuals who sit on the committee can make decisions on behalf of their organisations.  They are senior people. To say these people aren't fit for purpose is arrogant (to the extreme).

 

The Licensing Authority takes its advice from the SAG - as to restrictions, capacities etc etc.  They meet once a quarter - and inspect the ground on matchdays a minimum 4 times a season.  They have the absolute power to reduce capacity whether there has been an incident or not - if they have concerns over the stadium management, or where inspectors identify any deficiencies in the structure, equipment, records or management systems.

 

People keep saying what has changed since Wycombe - well one significant change has been John Rutherford leaving the club. The much maligned (on Owlstalk) John Rutherford.

 

Nobody knows as its purely speculation - but the council must act reasonably - because any reduction in capacity comes with a right of appeal. If we havent appealed - but instead made changes - is it really hard to see that we may have accepted the council were right to reduce the capacity?

 

Clarification - SAG do not reduce the Capacity - the Council do (but will obviously do so on the strength of advice from the Advisory committee)

[Guest Deleted member]

BTW - if anybody does fancy working their way through the 232 page document that gives the guidelines to establishing a true capacity at a stadium, with all of the necessary factors, calculations and equations - feel free. But needless to say - a capacity is absolutely nothing to do with how many seats you can fit in..

 

heres the link to the document

 

http://www.safetyatsportsgrounds.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/green-guide.pdf

 

[Guest]

 

The SAG Group only exists as a result of the Taylor Report - which only existed as a result of a major incident that cost the lives of nearly a hundred people, in OUR stadium.

 

Every council in the country now has a SAG - because of the same reasons.  The SAG consists of;

 

Head of Licensing (Chairs the meetings - and issues our Certificate)

our Stadium Manager

SYP

SY Fire & Rescue

Y Ambulance Service

Council Building Standards

Council Health Protection Scheme

 

It is a requirement that all individuals who sit on the committee can make decisions on behalf of their organisations.  They are senior people. To say these people aren't fit for purpose is arrogant (to the extreme).

 

The Licensing Authority takes its advice from the SAG - as to restrictions, capacities etc etc.  They meet once a quarter - and inspect the ground on matchdays a minimum 4 times a season.  They have the absolute power to reduce capacity whether there has been an incident or not - if they have concerns over the stadium management, or where inspectors identify any deficiencies in the structure, equipment, records or management systems.

 

People keep saying what has changed since Wycombe - well one significant change has been John Rutherford leaving the club. The much maligned (on Owlstalk) John Rutherford.

 

Nobody knows as its purely speculation - but the council must act reasonably - because any reduction in capacity comes with a right of appeal. If we havent appealed - but instead made changes - is it really hard to see that we may have accepted the council were right to reduce the capacity?

 

Clarification - SAG do not reduce the Capacity - the Council do (but will obviously do so on the strength of advice from the Advisory committee)

 

It may also be speculated that we have appealed certain issues which may have resulted in revised expectations that we then agreed to meet. As the club are considering the course of consulting legal advice should the next decision go against them then maybe appeals have been rebuked.

[Road Runner]

Grandad,why the fell is your avatar pic doing a dance at the bottom of my page on my phone? 

 

 

 

[Guest Deleted member]

 

Grandad,why the fell is your avatar pic doing a dance at the bottom of my page on my phone? 

 

 

 

Don't blame me - I was told my last one was irritating!

[Guest Deleted member]

 

 

It may also be speculated that we have appealed certain issues which may have resulted in revised expectations that we then agreed to meet. As the club are considering the course of consulting legal advice should the next decision go against them then maybe appeals have been rebuked.

 

 

You're right of course. Its all speculation. And lets not forget there may well be some 'grandstanding' going off in a room full of fans talking to senior people at the club when talking about the reduction in capacity. 

[Guest]

 

BTW - if anybody does fancy working their way through the 232 page document that gives the guidelines to establishing a true capacity at a stadium, with all of the necessary factors, calculations and equations - feel free. But needless to say - a capacity is absolutely nothing to do with how many seats you can fit in..

 

heres the link to the document

 

http://www.safetyatsportsgrounds.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/green-guide.pdf

 

 

It does have a little to do with how many seats you can fit in - unless the club has put the seats in without adhering to these relevant documents at the time of installing them? Surely no club would build a stand or put in seats that doesn't comply with the relevant rules at the time of doing so. When seating structures were put in place in our ground they number of seat surely complied with the regulations to allow us to make use of all of them - the stands may be old but the seating plans of the Kop, West and South were all altered in the 90's and have been used to capacity at times since then.

 

Obviously revisions are made periodically which can then alter the actual capacity to differ from the number of seats in the ground.

 

Do you know whether that is the latest edition? It is listed as the 5th, published in 2008, the 4th was published in 1997.

[Guest Deleted member]

 

 

It does have a little to do with how many seats you can fit in - unless the club has put the seats in without adhering to these relevant documents at the time of installing them? Surely no club would build a stand or put in seats that doesn't comply with the relevant rules at the time of doing so. When seating structures were put in place in our ground they number of seat surely complied with the regulations to allow us to make use of all of them - the stands may be old but the seating plans of the Kop, West and South were all altered in the 90's and have been used to capacity at times since then.

 

Obviously revisions are made periodically which can then alter the actual capacity to differ from the number of seats in the ground.

 

Do you know whether that is the latest edition? It is listed as the 5th, published in 2008, the 4th was published in 1997.

 

It was the most recent one I found.  Ive had a brief look through - the significant variable (which only our stadium manager would know) would be the (P) and (S) factor - which makes it impossible to assess anything else as a layman

[Guest]

 

 

 

You're right of course. Its all speculation. And lets not forget there may well be some 'grandstanding' going off in a room full of fans talking to senior people at the club when talking about the reduction in capacity. 

 

Agreed, grandstanding from both sides. 

There must be an understandable frustration from the club though that they are unable to sell tickets that they have demand for despite the fact that they have recently sold them without any safety incidents of note - I am sure had there been any significant safety issues recently that they would have come to light through social media even if the club tried to keep them private.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

 

 

Deary, deary me.

 

Yes, you are very mistaken my friend.

 

Lost in your own irony

I'm not your friend, don't be inflating your friends list with me.

[RichSheffWeds]

This will not change whilst the Leppings Lane end continues in its current structure.

 

Assuming we stay at Hillsborough, it needs demoliting and replaced with a modern, flexible stand which can accommodate differing numbers of fans both home and away. 

 

It will need different exit routes - we managed to build a bridge over the Don from the South, we should be looking at moving home fans out away from Leppings Lane using a similar facility.

 

 

[MrsHall]

Posts 1,2,3....all good, its a reyt mess. UTO.

[quinnssweetshop]

 

Unless i'm mistaken the first world war kicked off in 1914, the south stand was rebuilt just before the 1996 Euro's 

 

I'm guessing history maths and common sense isn't your strong point?

" Shoot self in foot post of the year "

[Guest Kameron]

The only difference since the dramatic reduction in capacity is our operations manager.  I'll say it again, I think it suits the club agenda to have a limited capacity, you watch it suddenly increase if we need to beat Fulham on the final day, Section T on the north will be open, the bottom right hand corner of the south will be open and home supporters will be on the lep lower.  DC wasn't fussed about the none sell out against Newcastle because he made his money anyway and he was never gunna sell out at them prices on sky, when it suits all home areas will be available.