SAG - Irritating but necessary

[elyowl1]

Slightly off topic but the age of the stand would not be a concern if designed well.

 

I watched a programme relating to the design and building of the bird cage stadium in Beijing using modern CAD and the colosseum in Rome . 

 

Similar ar capacity and even using all the latest developments computer simulations showed the colosseum would empty quicker.

[Guest Deleted member]

 

Slightly off topic but the age of the stand would not be a concern if designed well.

 

I watched a programme relating to the design and building of the bird cage stadium in Beijing using modern CAD and the colosseum in Rome . 

 

Similar ar capacity and even using all the latest developments computer simulations showed the colosseum would empty quicker.

It sounds really sad - but I'd love to watch that... 

 

Any links?

[Guest Kameron]

Laws may have changed but we're being treated the same as others, Elland Road is no different to Hillsborough but they manage to use their stadium to almost capacity.  We travel around the country and away concourses are no different to ours, Rotherham the week in a new stadium was in fact smaller.  It's easy to blame SAG but why have matters become worse since the departure of John Rutherford.  I do wonder if it suits the club to have a reduced capacity, fans can no longer rock up last minute and be guaranteed a seat so will be likely to buy well in advance for fear of missing out.  The have been no major changes to health and safety laws that SAG can hide behind, the match day set up at Hillsborough is no worse than any of the older stadiums around the country, I'm not naming em all but there are loads left.

[Inspector Lestrade]

 

 

Agreed - frustrating isn't it.

 

However given the 'concourse culture' its only a metter of time before a crushing will cause injury or worse there instead of in the seats

 

 

Agree with the general drift of your post.

 

Not that I would like to see it happen but the "concourse culture" could be stopped by more robust "policing" of the situation moving people on, not allowing them to congregate etc, you know the rest.

 

This would probably stop the fans from coming into, the ground early and they would find other places to do it. Probably pubs and the streets and this would bring a whole host of other  issues.

 

The south stand has a large concourse how bigger an area are you advocating for a concourse? 

[elyowl1]

link to the computer simulation grandad , the full program was on national geographic 

[robswfc]

 

I completely understand the irritation over the SAG - I share the frustration. It does seem like they are being overly cautious and inconveniencing many many people at times, not least the club and its fans.

 

One inescapable fact however is that many many people died at our ground, in living memory. The stand that was heavily responsible for those deaths (as per the inquest results) still stands - with seats now instead of standing, fences gone, and turnstiles increased.  

 

But other than that very little has changed in our ground. In any of it.

 

Our ground and concourses were mostly designed and built in the 60s. The South Stand was designed built before the First World War.

 

Laws have changed as a result of Health and Safety regulations constantly being updated. Imagine if there was a single death at our stadium at any time in the future that was deemed to be as a result of a breach of the health & Safety regulation? None of us like the continued discussion about the Hillsborough Disaster - but its a fact of life that this will always be associated with us - and therefore the SAG will be influenced by it. They will always be over cautious at Hillsborough - purely because of its history. It doesnt help that club officials ignored safety recommendations that contributed to the disaster in order to keep the capacity at a level suitable for semi final games - essentially sacrificing safety for profit.

 

Everybody hates Health and Safety people in this country - they are renowned for being pinickity - but they are a necessary factor of the modern world. Ambulance chasing solicitors also see to that too... Unpopular view I know. But its a fact.

 

Disaster was nearly 30 years ago, and the fences which killed those poor souls are gone. It could have happened anywhere, yet SWFC are still being punished for it

 

Havent seen much evidence of this dangerous concourse culture at Hillsborough, and there is plenty of room for fans on the concourses

 

Redevelopment of Hillsborough in line with SAG recommendations would surely improve safety. There's really no safety reason why we should have to move grounds

 

[Guest]

 

I completely understand the irritation over the SAG - I share the frustration. It does seem like they are being overly cautious and inconveniencing many many people at times, not least the club and its fans.

 

One inescapable fact however is that many many people died at our ground, in living memory. The stand that was heavily responsible for those deaths (as per the inquest results) still stands - with seats now instead of standing, fences gone, and turnstiles increased.  

 

But other than that very little has changed in our ground. In any of it.

 

Our ground and concourses were mostly designed and built in the 60s. The South Stand was designed built before the First World War.

 

Laws have changed as a result of Health and Safety regulations constantly being updated. Imagine if there was a single death at our stadium at any time in the future that was deemed to be as a result of a breach of the health & Safety regulation? None of us like the continued discussion about the Hillsborough Disaster - but its a fact of life that this will always be associated with us - and therefore the SAG will be influenced by it. They will always be over cautious at Hillsborough - purely because of its history. It doesnt help that club officials ignored safety recommendations that contributed to the disaster in order to keep the capacity at a level suitable for semi final games - essentially sacrificing safety for profit.

 

Everybody hates Health and Safety people in this country - they are renowned for being pinickity - but they are a necessary factor of the modern world. Ambulance chasing solicitors also see to that too... Unpopular view I know. But its a fact.

 

How many times has that stand been used since then? 

It was deemed suitable to hold its full allocation for the biggest football tournament outside of the World Cup.

 

Laws have changed but not so much since we were allowed full capacity against Wycombe and the use of the ground more recent;y than that.

 

Other grounds seem to be able to operate with little segregation and minimal safety precautions in comparison with us - the upper concourse at Villa Park a few weeks ago was only wide enough across its entire length for 2 people to stand side to side.

 

We are being victimised for the mistakes of others, being made to jump through hoops and the hoops are seemingly being moved while we are in mid-air. 

[Mr Farrell]

Are we being treated differently to any other clubs ?

[elyowl1]

 

Are we being treated differently to any other clubs ?

I think you know that answer to that question , you've posted on here for long enough. 

 

But to to answer the question i think SYP manage us and United differently considering their average attendance is just less than ours with a slightly smaller stadium. 

[aeroswfc]

Health and Safety goes way over the top though sometimes. 

[elyowl1]

 

Health and Safety goes way over the top though sometimes. 

I agree 

 

H&S is fine coupled with proper risk assessment, it's what people do in the name of H&S which causes the issues.

 

Common sense gets thrown out and stupidity reigns supreme. 

[Jowl]

I'd say its the SAG that isn't fit for purpose. They do seem to make rules up as they go along. I know they to an extent they are necessary but without any transparency or consistancy it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

[Guest Deleted member]

To clarify - I'm not defending the SAG - just pointing out why its necessary

[BRADDO]

 

Unless i'm mistaken the first world war kicked off in 1914, the south stand was rebuilt just before the 1996 Euro's 

 

I'm guessing history maths and common sense isn't your strong point?

 

Deary, deary me.

 

Yes, you are very mistaken my friend.

 

Lost in your own irony

[Guest]

 

To clarify - I'm not defending the SAG - just pointing out why its necessary

 

We all understand it's necessary. It's necessary for all clubs and should be the same across the board. W e don't even get treated the same as the clubs within our regions SAG remit. 

Regulations were put in place post 1989 to prevent a disaster like that occurring in football, not just at our club but at any club. We have adhered to safety regulations like every other club but fans get treated differently at Hillsborough even still. Some might say that's understandable as those responsible must be saying nothing like that can ever happen here again but the fact is nothing like that should ever be risked anywhere again and so the rules should be the same for all.

 

The upper concourse that we were given at Villa Park would not be an easy place for a capacity crowd in that area to get out from in any emergency.

[Guest Deleted member]

How good would a new stadium be based on the Colliseum? With a roof

[Guest Deleted member]

 

 

We all understand it's necessary. It's necessary for all clubs and should be the same across the board. W e don't even get treated the same as the clubs within our regions SAG remit. 

Regulations were put in place post 1989 to prevent a disaster like that occurring in football, not just at our club but at any club. We have adhered to safety regulations like every other club but fans get treated differently at Hillsborough even still. Some might say that's understandable as those responsible must be saying nothing like that can ever happen here again but the fact is nothing like that should ever be risked anywhere again and so the rules should be the same for all.

 

The upper concourse that we were given at Villa Park would not be an easy place for a capacity crowd in that area to get out from in any emergency.

No club will ever be treated the same - unless their stadium is identical. There are numerous factors meaning we are treated differently

 

 

[akbuk]

 

I completely understand the irritation over the SAG - I share the frustration. It does seem like they are being overly cautious and inconveniencing many many people at times, not least the club and its fans.

 

One inescapable fact however is that many many people died at our ground, in living memory. The stand that was heavily responsible for those deaths (as per the inquest results) still stands - with seats now instead of standing, fences gone, and turnstiles increased.  

 

But other than that very little has changed in our ground. In any of it.

 

Our ground and concourses were mostly designed and built in the 60s. The South Stand was designed built before the First World War.

 

Laws have changed as a result of Health and Safety regulations constantly being updated. Imagine if there was a single death at our stadium at any time in the future that was deemed to be as a result of a breach of the health & Safety regulation? None of us like the continued discussion about the Hillsborough Disaster - but its a fact of life that this will always be associated with us - and therefore the SAG will be influenced by it. They will always be over cautious at Hillsborough - purely because of its history. It doesnt help that club officials ignored safety recommendations that contributed to the disaster in order to keep the capacity at a level suitable for semi final games - essentially sacrificing safety for profit.

 

Everybody hates Health and Safety people in this country - they are renowned for being pinickity - but they are a necessary factor of the modern world. Ambulance chasing solicitors also see to that too... Unpopular view I know. But its a fact.

A thoughtful post, for the record I don't dislike Health and Safety,it is necessary.

But the lepings lane end need bulldozing and rebuilding

[rob1601]

I think SYP are as much of an issue as the SAG. See meeting minutes for the note on Newcastle allocation.

 

SAG take advice from SYP too.

[Guest]

 

No club will ever be treated the same - unless their stadium is identical. There are numerous factors meaning we are treated differently

 

 

 

I understand concourse sizes, exit routes, number of exits etc all have to be taken into specific account but there is no way anyone can tell me some of the grounds we have been to recently aren't potentially more dangerous than ours on some of those aspects.

 

Also, we have recently used some of the areas of our ground without any issues yet these are being restricted now. The club have asked what they can do to change things, have done as advised and have then seen the goal posts moved.