@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Article in the Yorkshire Post today where Trevor Francis speaks about being fired Amongst the things he says is that he feels the Sheffield Wednesdsy directors were wrong to sack him, that he should have had more time to clear out the older players, and on David Pleat’s time after him “most of them were my players, it was a very poor season” Full article here https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/sheffield-wednesday-never-recovered-1995-sacking-trevor-francis-2857365 Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plonk Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Hindsight is a wonderful thing but things were going wrong. He was replacing good players with average players. Where as Pleat came in replaced good players with poo, and average players with poo. The rest is typical Wednesday history. So near and yet so far. Still gave me some of my best memories. Four trips to Wembley in one season. You tell the kids of today about that. 2 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick_Turpin Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Plonk said: Hindsight is a wonderful thing but things were going wrong. He was replacing good players with average players. Where as Pleat came in replaced good players with poo, and average players with poo. The rest is typical Wednesday history. So near and yet so far. Still gave me some of my best memories. Four trips to Wembley in one season. You tell the kids of today about that. Pleat's second season we came 7th and should have qualified for Europe. Then it went belly up. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Wednesday made a fatal mistake when giving the managers job to Francis. He was a Wednesday player, had an awful record in management, and didn't have the experience or skills to manage our club. If we'd made the right decision at the time we could have been long time successes in the Premier League Appointing Francis wasn't just a bad business decision, it was fatal for our ability to compete at the highest level. God knows when we will actually recover from it 4 1 2 Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack the Hat Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 24 minutes ago, @owlstalk said: Wednesday made a fatal mistake when giving the managers job to Francis. He was a Wednesday player, had an awful record in management, and didn't have the experience or skills to manage our club. If we'd made the right decision at the time we could have been long time successes in the Premier League Appointing Francis wasn't just a bad business decision, it was fatal for our ability to compete at the highest level. God knows when we will actually recover from it ^^^^^ This 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Given that we finished 3rd in the top flight, challenged for European qualification for three consecutive years and made both major cup finals in the same season, it is nothing but hindsight to suggest that the club made a mistake giving him the job in the first place. Francis came within a hair's breadth of making himself an all-time club legend. There's no denying though that when things started down the other side of the mountain that the process started accelerating. He apparently lost respect amongst a significant proportion of the squad, the fans started turning against him in large numbers, performances and results went into decline and his signings got worse and worse. Between manager and boardroom, the club squandered the position it had put itself in and within just a few years was drowning in debt with a mediocre squad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sova Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, @owlstalk said: Wednesday made a fatal mistake when giving the managers job to Francis. He was a Wednesday player, had an awful record in management, and didn't have the experience or skills to manage our club. 3rd in the league? Cup finals? Some our best football in our lifetimes? More fatal mistakes, please! And don't forget the circumstances in which he was appointed. Yes, things went downhill at the end, but that happens to almost all managers eventually. Edited May 19, 2020 by Sova 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 34 minutes ago, Sova said: 3rd in the league? Cup finals? Some our best football in our lifetimes? More fatal mistakes, please! And don't forget the circumstances in which he was appointed. Yes, things went downhill at the end, but that happens to almost all managers eventually. I judge a manager on whether or not he left a better situation than he inherited. Anyone judging Francis on the fact that he managed to do ok with the squad he had, and not on how he managed, man managed, developed and improved that squad is looking at it wrong. Similar situation to Carlos' time with us. Had a wealth of talent at his disposal and they both made a right hash of it Both were rightly sacked The thing I would say about Carlos compared to Francis though is that I've not regrets about Carlos coming and having a crack at it. If you want to know another reason why Francis was rightly sacked speak to those who worked with him at the time about his man management 2 Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoop Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Sacking Francis was the correct decision. The massive mistake was hiring that pudding David Pleat 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 (edited) It started to go downhill for Francis once he started signing the likes of Atherton, Nolan, Pearce and Coleman. Shocking players. Edited May 19, 2020 by Great Big Galaa 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, @owlstalk said: I judge a manager on whether or not he left a better situation than he inherited. Anyone judging Francis on the fact that he managed to do ok with the squad he had, and not on how he managed, man managed, developed and improved that squad is looking at it wrong. Similar situation to Carlos' time with us. Had a wealth of talent at his disposal and the both made a right hash of it Both were rightly sacked The thing I would say about Carlos compared to Francis though is that I've not regrets about Carlos coming and having a crack at it. As it is with Carvalhal, you cannot accept his tenure came as two halves and then pretend one of them didn't happen. If we were Manchester United, then you might have the beginnings of a case. But we're a club who has amassed precisely one major trophy in 85 years, and for most of that time we haven't been anywhere near one. Francis put us right on the brink of being the best team in the country, bar none. Yes, he (and the board) made an arse of it in the end, but "regrets" !? Only that we came so close without adding to the honours board. Even if we'd maintained that kind of status for a while, the odds are that we'd have gone back to our historic level before too long. Even at that time, the debts were starting to mount and would have caught up to us in all but the most exceptional circumstances. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoop Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, DJMortimer said: Given that we finished 3rd in the top flight, challenged for European qualification for three consecutive years and made both major cup finals in the same season, it is nothing but hindsight to suggest that the club made a mistake giving him the job in the first place. Francis came within a hair's breadth of making himself an all-time club legend. There's no denying though that when things started down the other side of the mountain that the process started accelerating. He apparently lost respect amongst a significant proportion of the squad, the fans started turning against him in large numbers, performances and results went into decline and his signings got worse and worse. Between manager and boardroom, the club squandered the position it had put itself in and within just a few years was drowning in debt with a mediocre squad. Carlton Palmer’s view in a recent podcast was that the 91-93 side pretty much ran itself, such was the strength of character, bond and professionalism in the squad. Which I don’t doubt as many of them went on to manage themselves Francis’ downfall was that he replaced many of those players with players of a lesser calibre 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 1 minute ago, DJMortimer said: As it is with Carvalhal, you cannot accept his tenure came as two halves and then pretend one of them didn't happen. If we were Manchester United, then you might have the beginnings of a case. But we're a club who has amassed precisely one major trophy in 85 years, and for most of that time we haven't been anywhere near one. Francis put us right on the brink of being the best team in the country, bar none. Yes, he (and the board) made an arse of it in the end, but "regrets" !? Only that we came so close without adding to the honours board. Even if we'd maintained that kind of status for a while, the odds are that we'd have gone back to our historic level before too long. Even at that time, the debts were starting to mount and would have caught up to us in all but the most exceptional circumstances. A more experienced/bigger manager would have actually achieved the success you are talking about. Fact. 1 Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Question for all our readers : How many players have you heard come out and say what a great manager/man-manager Trevor Francis was? Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Stoop said: Carlton Palmer’s view in a recent podcast was that the 91-93 side pretty much ran itself, such was the strength of character, bond and professionalism in the squad. Which I don’t doubt as many of them went on to manage themselves Francis’ downfall was that he replaced many of those players with players of a lesser calibre No one can doubt that Francis lost it after the first couple of years. How did he go from signing the likes of Walker, Bright, Waddle and Warhurst who all made the squad better to Nolan, Coleman, Atherton etc? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoop Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 Just now, @owlstalk said: A more experienced/bigger manager would have actually achieved the success you are talking about. Fact. Completely agree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanharper Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 1 minute ago, @owlstalk said: A more experienced/bigger manager would have actually achieved the success you are talking about. Fact. If only we'd appointed an experienced top flight manager in 1991. Someone like David Pleat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sova Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 1 minute ago, @owlstalk said: I judge a manager on whether or not he left a better situation than he inherited. Anyone judging Francis on the fact that he managed to do ok with the squad he had, and not on how he managed, man managed, developed and improved that squad is looking at it wrong. But suppose we'd won the league, or even a cup, under TF, as we were very close to doing. He'd be a club legend, as DJM says. And, even if it was a lot easier back then, it wasn't a given that we'd do so well straight after getting promoted. West Ham, runners-up in the 2nd division, when we came up in 3rd, finished bottom the next season. Oldham, the champions, came 17th, then 19th, and then went down as well. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Just now, alanharper said: If only we'd appointed an experienced top flight manager in 1991. Someone like David Pleat. Pleat inherited Francis complete MESS instead of inheriting a class, winning squad like Francis did from Big Ron Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted May 19, 2020 Author Share Posted May 19, 2020 Just now, Sova said: But suppose we'd won the league, or even a cup, under TF, as we were very close to doing. He'd be a club legend Owen Morrison would be a club legend if he'd scored 50 goals a season during his time here. See how that kind of logic works? Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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