Mourinho, Carvalhal and 3rd season syndrome

[dorian gray]

39 minutes ago, Belfast Owl 2 said:

 

He struggled to react to the playoff defeat and became far too stubborn.

 

It does hint towards him being a short term fix although its baffling to see how far he retreated.

 

Although he did have favourites and didn't use resources he can't take all the blame.

 

If the regime was too slack then players taking advantage and not performing isn't good enough.

 

Its a shame how it ended but lets move on and try and take a balanced look at his reign.

at the start of the first season, the home win, was it bristol city 2-0?, was followed by us failing badly in a number of games with us taking a home point off reading after their keeper threw a late one into their own net, overall things did not begin to mesh until forestieri joined us. then the 'open' football took over, and results swung the other way, but i seem to think during carlos' reign we've struggled against 'effort' sides. i/we don't know ALL the truth of what has, and hasn't gone off in the corridors of power at s6, but some damn good money has been spent, and not too wisely from the look of things, there are things we can only speculate about. the end of first season play off final, was for me a disaster, NOT because we didn't win, we didn't turn up.

the second season started with signings for positions where we already had good talent, whilst what some thought glaring deficiencies were not replaced or covered, then the second play off nightmare, to make the first one look good, it's 'success' can only be judged by each and everyone individual, but for me we were steadily going downhill from the brighton play off victory.

i'm afraid i can only see a snake oil salesman, with smoke and mirrors, producing a new set of clothes for the emperor.

[dorian gray]

7 minutes ago, SiJ said:

So you thought he was shocking when you stood there at Wembley?

 

Thats assuming you actually went, of course. 

 

 

he would have by the end, didn't you?

[Earlsfieldowl]

Considering what he had at his disposal he will not be regarded as one of of the best..

 

Supporters will point to his win ratio but in this instance it only tells a small part of the story.

 

So many other things happened and others have since come to light as to render that statistic almost meaningless.

 

Marmite with CC - really very little middle ground. 

 

2015/6 was a golden opportunity and whilst he came close to glory, he was the ultimately the wrong man at the right time.

 

[SiJ]

24 minutes ago, dnhc said:

he would have by the end, didn't you?

He’s a grown man (allegedly) - sure he can answer for himself.

 

So you decided he was terrible at full time of the play off final then. 

 

Good to see you formed this opinion over a reasonable amount of time. 

[dorian gray]

i don't know if we've finished on this subject (likely) not, but i'll add this, it's not impossible for carlos to drag swansea out of this as, playing slowly, possession football, with the occasional strike may produce enough points to survive, but (in our case) it will not, or would not have produced enough points to grab a promotion or play off spot. it's as though he had entered into bunker mentality, now mourinho 'thrives' on this method 'THEM OR US' but i'm not sure cc has that in him. anyway good luck to hm, and i hope IF they go down (and we're still here) we see him in charge next season AT SWANSEA, I MEANT AT SWANSEA. 

[owlsdreamer]

9 hours ago, Mr Farrell said:

No no no.

 

Jose is a world renowned Manager.

 

Carlos is a fake. It just took us a lot longer than his other 14 Clubs to out him.

 

 

I notice from you post and negs relating to it have brought the usual suspects from under their stones.

[dorian gray]

1 minute ago, SiJ said:

He’s a grown man (allegedly) - sure he can answer for himself.

 

So you decided he was terrible at full time of the play off final then. 

 

Good to see you formed this opinion over a reasonable amount of time. 

no i saw it way before that, the small time 'effort clubs' results, easily finishing second to colin's toytown, when it gets to playoffs everybody is putting effort in, so IF your achilles heel is 'effort clubs' then times could be lean.

[SiJ]

2 minutes ago, dnhc said:

no i saw it way before that, the small time 'effort clubs' results, easily finishing second to colin's toytown, when it gets to playoffs everybody is putting effort in, so IF your achilles heel is 'effort clubs' then times could be lean.

What the hell are you on about? 

 

“Effort clubs”...

 

So you decided he wasn’t good enough after our second home defeat in the 2015/2016 season. 

[dorian gray]

6 minutes ago, SiJ said:

He’s a grown man (allegedly) - sure he can answer for himself.

 

So you decided he was terrible at full time of the play off final then. 

 

Good to see you formed this opinion over a reasonable amount of time. 

whilst were on about answering for himself, will you? by the end of the playoff final did you think this guy hasn't a second idea in his head? or did you think that an intricate short passing game against massed defensive positions should have reached a different conclusion that the one constantly used at that time to frustrate arsenal (2 banks of 4)?

as i said the other day, the only time he used a plan B was to **** off to swansea.

[dorian gray]

2 minutes ago, SiJ said:

What the hell are you on about? 

 

“Effort clubs”...

 

So you decided he wasn’t good enough after our second home defeat in the 2015/2016 season. 

if you don't know what effort clubs are, i'll leave it at that, only to add i can see why you like carlos, and his tactic.

but in answer to the second question, i wouldn't have interviewed him, never mind let him get to the second home defeat of the season.

[SiJ]

I was a little bit caught up in the play off final to be thinking about massed defensive positions. 

 

Clearly, you were sat there with a notepad scribbling down the pros and cons. 

 

Oh and “effort club” (assuming a plucky underdog who works hard) is something you made up 30 minutes ago. 

[Mr Farrell]

22 minutes ago, owlsdreamer said:

I notice from you post and negs relating to it have brought the usual suspects from under their stones.

 

Afraid so. Poor mites still struggling with debate the post not the poster concept.

 

All adds to the Owlstalk fun.

 

[Costello 77]

3 minutes ago, Mr Farrell said:

 

Afraid so. Poor mites still struggling with debate the post not the poster concept.

 

All adds to the Owlstalk fun.

 

I think you're a bird brained spiteful blustering shybo.

 

FFS.

[Walt]

2 hours ago, Hitcat said:

Love all this tactical shıt. 

 

A fascinating new study of Pep Guardiola by Spanish journalist Marti Perarnau reveals how a plot hatched by the manager in his training ground office just hours before a crucial Clasico game against Real Madrid changed Lionel Messi's career forever.

May 2, 2009. The Santiago Bernabéu stadium, Barcelona against Real Madrid. The scene was set for Pep Guardiola to unleash his secret weapon.

Ten minutes into the game, with the score at 0-0, Pep gave the nod Lionel to Messi and Samuel Eto'o. The two players had to swap positions. Eto'o, usually a centre-forward, moved to the right wing and Messi, a right winger, took up position in the centre of the field - but playing deeper, more like an attacking midfielder. Christoph Metzelder and Fabio Cannavaro, the Madrid centre-backs, were lost. They had no idea how to counteract the change.

Whilst researching this book I had the chance to meet Metzelder over dinner in Dusseldorf. That astonishing day was still fresh in his memory. "Fabio and I looked at each other. 'What do we do? Do we follow him to the midfield or stay deep?' We didn't have a clue."

 

The false 9 would go down in history as one of the more extraordinary of Guardiola's innovations, not because he invented it but because he was able to redefine the position through an exceptional player like Messi. How did he do it?

It was the day before the match - a holiday Friday. Guardiola had stayed at the stadium to study his opponents. This was a well-established routine, which he continues today at Bayern. He spends two days analysing the team they are about to face, looking for strengths and weaknesses. He reviews entire matches as well as sections of the videos his assistants have picked out for him. Domènec Torrent and Carles Planchart, who are now at Bayern, provided this kind of information for him back then, too.

The day before the game, he shuts himself in his office, puts on some gentle music and thinks about his approach to the match. Where should they attack their opponents? What is the best way to dominate?

"I sit down and watch two or three videos. I take notes. That's when that flash of inspiration comes - the moment that makes sense of my profession. The instant I know, for sure, that I've got it. I know how to win. It only lasts for about a minute, but it's the moment that my job becomes truly meaningful.'

When he talked about this moment of magic he was probably thinking back to May 1, 2009. To that moment when he showed the world that he had found a new way to beat Real Madrid. Having watched a previous match between the two teams, Pep noticed how much pressure Real's midfielders Guti, Fernando Gago and Royston Drenthe put on his own players, Xavi and Yaya Touré. He also noticed the tendency of the central defenders, Cannavaro and Metzelder, to hang back near Iker Casillas' goalmouth. This left a vast expanse of space between them and the Madrid midfielders.

It was 10pm and Pep was alone in his office. Everyone else, including his assistants, had gone home. He sat in that dimly lit room imagining Messi moving freely across that enormous empty space in the Bernabéu. He saw him face-to-face with Metzelder and Cannavaro, the two players frozen on the edge of the box, unsure whether or not to chase the Argentine. The image was crystal clear and he picked up the phone and dialled Messi's number.

"Leo, it's Pep. I've just seen something important. Really important. Why don't you come over. Now, please."

At 10.30pm there is a gentle knock at Pep's office door and a 21-year-old Leo Messi comes in. The coach shows him the video, pausing it to point out the empty space. He wants his player to make that space his own. From now on it will be ‘the Messi zone'.

"Tomorrow in Madrid I want you to start on the wing as usual, but the minute I give you a sign I want you to move away from the midfielders and into the space I just showed you. The minute Xavi or Andrés Iniesta break between the lines and give you the ball I want you to head straight for Casillas' goal."

It was a secret between the two. Nobody else would know about the plans until Pep explained to Tito Vilanova the following day in the team hotel. Just minutes before kick-off, Guardiola took Xavi and Iniesta to one side and told them.

"When you see Leo in the space between the lines down the middle, don't hesitate. Give him the ball. Like we did in Gijón."

That day in May 2009, the strategy worked perfectly and Barça destroyed Real Madrid, winning by six goals to two. Messi had become a false No 9.

Yeah I remember Dave Jones doing summat similar with an half fit JJ in a last match relegation decider against Boro. Played JJ up front and he ran riot against a Boro back four who were “on the deck chairs” 2 nowt Wednesday. A tactical mastersroke, and there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that DJ followed a similar process to that of Pep in finding his Eureka moment. A quick midnight phonecalll to the hamstrung (injured) flying machine that is JJ and the rest is history. One love.

[Costello 77]

Glad someones sense of humour radar is switched on tonight.

 

 

FFS.

[SiJ]

45 minutes ago, Mr Farrell said:

 

Afraid so. Poor mites still struggling with debate the post not the poster concept.

 

All adds to the Owlstalk fun.

 

Please. 

 

You only debate with a select few - namely the ones who agree with you and all the crap you post. 

 

No doubt you'll be leading the anti-Jos campaign in a few months. Can't wait. 

[Stoop]

[vulture_squadron]

Wow. I just thought there were some similarities between Mourinho and Carlos' lack of emphasis on fitness and conditioning and their charisma running out.

 

Carlos just stayed too long. If he'd gone in the summer I don't think anyone would be calling him a fraud.

[vulture_squadron]

14 minutes ago, Mishowl said:

So we are now comparing Jose who has won everything with Carlos what has won nothing? 

 

Let it go!!!

I'm not saying they are on the same level but that they share a philosophy and this might explain the lack of fitness. I Don't feel particularly strongly either way about him to be honest but glad we've made the change.

[dorian gray]

20 hours ago, SiJ said:

I was a little bit caught up in the play off final to be thinking about massed defensive positions. 

 

Clearly, you were sat there with a notepad scribbling down the pros and cons. 

 

Oh and “effort club” (assuming a plucky underdog who works hard) is something you made up 30 minutes ago. 

i do realise that individuals watch football in differing ways, however to watch our banging our heads against a brick wall continuously (unsuccessfully) for our most important game for god knows how many seasons, i'd have to be absolutely 'smashed' not to see our lack of tactics and alternatives.

i don't need a notepad (well not just yet), and if i did, i wouldn't need a notepad to write down the one tactic of carlos carvalhal.

if you think the term 'effort club' and it's meaning was made up by me 30 minutes ago, i think that speaks far more of you, than it does of me, call it what you like, i do believe a great many people on here and in the real world will fully understand the term.