Safe standing

[nebneeb]

Wild thing, you didn't read the link did you? Literally everything you ask and every misconception you have is answered.

There's no debate to be had here.

[kidc77]

Why? It's not...

Safe standing is just the same as seating is now but with a higher bar that you can lean on to stop you falling over the seat in front.

Well every game I have been too once people act like nobs in a seated area they are pulled out. Put them in a row of 20/3/40 maybe more and probably all pissed up mates stood together and try getting stewards to stop it. You have no flipping chance.

It won't happen and it makes no sense to implement at Hillsborough commercially* but I would like it it

And this is the biggest reason for me. It isn't needed not one bit.

* You only pay for this if you are building a new stand or need an increased atmosphere.

[San Clemente Owl]

Well every game I have been too once people act like nobs in a seated area they are pulled out. Put them in a row of 20/3/40 maybe more and probably all pissed up mates stood together and try getting stewards to stop it. You have no flipping chance.

 

Thats crap!!  They are already in rows 20/30/40 long, and all standing up in the away ends as well.  This seating divides fans into small groups, it would be just as hard (or just as easy) for the stewards and the police to do whatever they want.  But again thats not the point, fans are standing now, every game, every ground, but they are doing it in areas designed for seating, not standing, and this is far more dangerous than these rail seats.  At the end of the day this is about what fans want, the atmosphere being the main benefit, if you want to sit, go in the North or South stand, well maybe not the away end of the North, as they all stand all game anyway!!

[Davetherave]

Stamford bridge 8th April 1967 FA Cup.

A barrier behind us went, resulting in what

it must feel like when a pole vaulter (with his pole) tries

a rear entry approach on ones hind quarter.

Could have been one of the most dramatic deaths in history

akin to the activities of Vlad the Impaler.

 

Scary, I'll say and I don't frighten very easily pal!

 

Still remember the pieces of cast and wrought iron along with blocks of

concrete being passed over the heads down to the front.

You just couldn't stand on the debris.

 

All very controlled with no panicking.

Remember going down Carnaby Street and up the GPO tower (now the Telecom tower)

before the game.

Wow ... good times, although we lost 1- nil.

[kidc77]

Thats crap!! They are already in rows 20/30/40 long, and all standing up in the away ends as well. This seating divides fans into small groups, it would be just as hard (or just as easy) for the stewards and the police to do whatever they want. But again thats not the point, fans are standing now, every game, every ground, but they are doing it in areas designed for seating, not standing, and this is far more dangerous than these rail seats. At the end of the day this is about what fans want, the atmosphere being the main benefit, if you want to sit, go in the North or South stand, well maybe not the away end of the North, as they all stand all game anyway!!

Ok let me turn this back around. If fans are capable of behaving in standing environments not doing anything silly to endanger other fans safety ( look at the pic in this thread) then why do we need the new standing areas? People will find ways to be absolute wee wee tail ends at matches and put them all back together in a standing area and you will get the same sorts of people from the Birmingham bar area video jumping up and down throwing mates on their shoulders etc. A lot of English fans ours included act like tools when stood together in large groups and if I was the club owner I wouldn't even consider looking at something that for me only has really one valid point. Adding atmosphere.

I

[San Clemente Owl]

Ok let me turn this back around. If fans are capable of behaving in standing environments not doing anything silly to endanger other fans safety ( look at the pic in this thread) then why do we need the new standing areas? People will find ways to be absolute wee wee tail ends at matches and put them all back together in a standing area and you will get the same sorts of people from the Birmingham bar area video jumping up and down throwing mates on their shoulders etc. A lot of English fans ours included act like tools when stood together in large groups and if I was the club owner I wouldn't even consider looking at something that for me only has really one valid point. Adding atmosphere.

I

 

But there are no standing environments currently, they are standing in seated environments, which makes them dangerous like in the picture.  You are right, morons will be morons, this won't cure that or make it worse either, thats a different conversation.  These rail seat areas allow more people into the stand, in safer environments than what they are standing in now, they are still separated into rows like they are now so the "group" as you put it won't be any bigger anyway.  The thought is that will improve the atmosphere at games and its what the majority of fans would like to see.

[Guest]

So at least we are all agreed that we do have a behaviour problem still in England then? Which removes the reasoning that because we are better behaved than fans in Europe we should be allowed safe standing. Now we can move on the debate to purely wether safe standing would be safer to fans or not. Which people have put forward some very good arguments for an against and in a mostly civilised manner.

[We'llNeverBeMastered]

Ok let me turn this back around. If fans are capable of behaving in standing environments not doing anything silly to endanger other fans safety ( look at the pic in this thread) then why do we need the new standing areas? People will find ways to be absolute wee wee tail ends at matches and put them all back together in a standing area and you will get the same sorts of people from the Birmingham bar area video jumping up and down throwing mates on their shoulders etc. A lot of English fans ours included act like tools when stood together in large groups and if I was the club owner I wouldn't even consider looking at something that for me only has really one valid point. Adding atmosphere.

I

Wait, how are people wee wee tails for having a party in the concourse and enjoying themselves?

People like you are the reason the atmosphere is as bad as it is, frowning on people creating one.

[San Clemente Owl]

So at least we are all agreed that we do have a behaviour problem still in England then? Which removes the reasoning that because we are better behaved than fans in Europe we should be allowed safe standing. Now we can move on the debate to purely wether safe standing would be safer to fans or not. Which people have put forward some very good arguments for an against and in a mostly civilised manner.

 

I don't think anyone said we don't still have issues in England,  not sure how that even became part of the debate??  This idea is put forward every so often because first of all fan surveys have consistently shown that fans want to have the option to stand, that fans are standing anyway in areas not designed for it and that the atmosphere at football is nowhere near what it used to be and that this would improve it. 

[nebneeb]

Ok let me turn this back around. If fans are capable of behaving in standing environments not doing anything silly to endanger other fans safety ( look at the pic in this thread) then why do we need the new standing areas? People will find ways to be absolute wee wee tail ends at matches and put them all back together in a standing area and you will get the same sorts of people from the Birmingham bar area video jumping up and down throwing mates on their shoulders etc. A lot of English fans ours included act like tools when stood together in large groups and if I was the club owner I wouldn't even consider looking at something that for me only has really one valid point. Adding atmosphere.

I

It's literally nothing to do with the behaviour of fans on the concourse.

You're completely missing the basic point.

When a goal is scored it is a natural reaction to move forward. That happens regardless of if anyone is pissed or not.

A barrier to stop fans tripping and falling over the back of the seat in front makes it safer.

It's as simple as that.

It doesn't encourage or discourage fans to behave any different.

It doesn't make policing and stewarding more or less difficult.

It just makes standing, which is happening now, safer to do.

It reduces the chance of an injury or worse occurring.

There are 2 options.

1) make standing safer by introducing safe standing areas.

2) ban standing and ensure all fans are seated at all times.

I guess you can include a 3rd option of doing nothing, but that's pretty negligent and when an incident occurs would result in liability issues and enquiries etc.

I suspect the club would be held responsible for failing to enforce the rule that all the fans should be sat down. When the reality is that getting 4000 fans to sit down is unrealistic and could actually spark a riot trying to enforce it...

Don't let it come to that. Allow clubs to make their stadiums safer for the fans.

[kidc77]

Wait, how are people wee wee tails for having a party in the concourse and enjoying themselves?

People like you are the reason the atmosphere is as bad as it is, frowning on people creating one.

Throwing beer all over every rascal isn't being a wee wee tail end??? Listen mate f you don't realise that then roger me you need putting down. I used to be act up when I was younger but I knew I was acting like a job end when doing it.

It happens young uns get pissed and act stupid. But putting them together in a standing area ( safe or not) whilst acting like job ends isn't safe

[Guest]

Ok. So say we introduce rail seating in England. Do we all think this would mean cheaper ticket prices or just enable big clubs to shift lots more tickets at full price? Discuss.

[VictoryBell]

I'm all for standing at matches - the move to all seater was a panic-driven response to the disaster. Standing up at football grounds - as a cause of death at or near (Hillsborough) football matches - has always been insignificant compared to deaths from depression and heart attacks through watching Wednesday, to say nothing of inhalation of huge amounts of FAAAG smoke and eating the volcanic pork pies (both of them noble traditions at our beloved stadium). Lots of people get run over and murdered, too and there's no ban as yet on cars or knives so why they stopped us standing up is a mystery.

 

Having said that, "safe" standing involves ridiculous rails and "use if you want" tip up seats like the ones at some bus stops. It wouldn't be the same, so it's a "no" from me. It's either bring back traditional (ooh, too dangerous) standing on a concrete step leaning on a blue barrier in the drizzle in a near empty stadium at 1.45pm whilst Eddystone Lighthouse's "Love Grows" is on the tannoy or nothing, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Fock off. I'm allowed my opinion.   

 

God, almighty - I had to edit this because the language Nazis didn't like me using the word "f a g"

 

Onanists! (I bet they don't even know what that means)

Edited February 12, 2016 by VictoryBell

[Guest]

For what it's worth I see a very strong argument for small rail seating sections in grounds in England and have tried to play devils advocate at all times in this thread, flipping arguments for and against around regularly to encourage discussion. Not all of which has proved popular, may I add.

[San Clemente Owl]

Ok. So say we introduce rail seating in England. Do we all think this would mean cheaper ticket prices or just enable big clubs to shift lots more tickets at full price? Discuss.

 

God forbid we should turn this into a ticket price thread!!

 

But to answer your question, imo I think we would see this area maybe being ST holders only initially and probably would see a slight reduction but not much.

[nebneeb]

Throwing beer all over every rascal isn't being a wee wee tail end??? Listen mate f you don't realise that then roger me you need putting down. I used to be act up when I was younger but I knew I was acting like a job end when doing it.

It happens young uns get pissed and act stupid. But putting them together in a standing area ( safe or not) whilst acting like job ends isn't safe

It's a lot safer than putting them in an area designed for sitting in.

If there was a roudy fan on the row behind you, would you prefer a barrier to stop them toppling into you, or have them fly onto your back as they trip over the seat?

[San Clemente Owl]

For what it's worth I see a very strong argument for small rail seating sections in grounds in England and have tried to play devils advocate at all times in this thread, flipping arguments for and against around regularly to encourage discussion. Not all of which has proved popular, may I add.

 

Nothing like a good debate, and that needs opposing views!!

 

I don't think we would do the whole Kop though, just a section of the Kop, either at the back above the gangway or the middle section only, but not the whole thing.

[Guest]

God forbid we should turn this into a ticket price thread!!

But to answer your question, imo I think we would see this area maybe being ST holders only initially and probably would see a slight reduction but not much.

I'm just trying to get at it from all angles. Having read a few threads on German fans experiences the safe standing has proved popular but also there has been a move to get crowds back through fan owned clubs, cheap prices etc. Do we trust that English clubs would go the full hog and follow suit or simply carry on charging a fortune for new rail seated areas?

[nebneeb]

I'm just trying to get at it from all angles. Having read a few threads on German fans experiences the safe standing has proved popular but also there has been a move to get crowds back through fan owned clubs, cheap prices etc. Do we trust that English clubs would go the full hog and follow suit or simply carry on charging a fortune for new rail seated areas?

Supply and demand.

A safe standing area would be the first to sell out at the same price.

Can't see clubs reducing the price if I'm honest.

[Guest]

Supply and demand.

A safe standing area would be the first to sell out at the same price.

Can't see clubs reducing the price if I'm honest.

I fear the same. Shame but probably would be true.