the monk Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It was fences/pens and a door being opened that caused the disaster. What would happen if the game had kicked off and 2/3 thousand arrived on mass at the seating area ? It may not be the same outcome , but there would be a lot of broken legs Probably never going to happen I know, but my point is it's not standing that caused it , it was other factors . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The main drawback to rail seating is that fans are allocated a seat to stand in front of just as we are now and the rows are railed in. It would only take a few idiots trying to force their way into a row they are not allocated into to cause a crush. That is a very real danger, due to each row having big rails to the front and back of it. Also, anyone old enough will remember hoolies running sideways across the terrace to throw things into the crowd or charge the rozzers etc. The rail seats actually make perfect corridors for this to happen, with no seats blocking the route. No matter what technology is introduced the idiots would be the downfall, just like the ones who rear seats up as we are no and launch them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebneeb Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 funny how 3000 of us managed to stand in a seating area against brum and another 5500 will be doing the same against Preston and nothing happened. Agreed something needed to be done but times have moved on this ridiculous obsession with safety is over the top. Standing is and would be fine up and down the country The current risk is that something could happen if some people at the back fall forward into the back of people in front. That does happen every time we score away from home. I frequently have cuts and bruises all down my shin from being pushed in the back and falling into the seat in front. That's fine for me, but wouldn't necessarily be fine for an older or younger fan. It's basically an accident waiting to happen somewhere in this country. Introduce the barriers and it makes it safe. Sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebneeb Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The main drawback to rail seating is that fans are allocated a seat to stand in front of just as we are now and the rows are railed in. It would only take a few idiots trying to force their way into a row they are not allocated into to cause a crush. That is a very real danger, due to each row having big rails to the front and back of it. Also, anyone old enough will remember hoolies running sideways across the terrace to throw things into the crowd or charge the rozzers etc. The rail seats actually make perfect corridors for this to happen, with no seats blocking the route. No matter what technology is introduced the idiots would be the downfall, just like the ones who rear seats up as we are no and launch them. People do that when there is standing in the seating areas anyway. Only it's even more dangerous currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 People do that when there is standing in the seating areas anyway. Only it's even more dangerous currently. How can it possibly be even more dangerous currently? If people crush into an isle now they people can easily step over the seat in front to ease the crush. Not pretty, maybe a few scratches. Never been a major incident in decades of seating so what is your "more dangerous" based on? Rail seats would literally pen fans into that row, relying on fans at the end moving out of their allocated space to allow room. Has to be a bigger risk factor, simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 How can it possibly be even more dangerous currently? If people crush into an isle now they people can easily step over the seat in front to ease the crush. Not pretty, maybe a few scratches. Never been a major incident in decades of seating so what is your "more dangerous" based on? Rail seats would literally pen fans into that row, relying on fans at the end moving out of their allocated space to allow room. Has to be a bigger risk factor, simple. Easily step over!!!! if people are pushing on to the current seated rows theres a good chance there are people in front as well therefore not making it easy to step over at all as people are in your way the safe standing or rail seats as you are calling them replaced seating in certain German grounds with no consequences and there is more room on the isle of a safe standing seat than anywhere in the current ground You seem to be basing the modern safe standing on the perception of the 80s hooligan fan which we are long way away from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Easily step over!!!! if people are pushing on to the current seated rows theres a good chance there are people in front as well therefore not making it easy to step over at all as people are in your way the safe standing or rail seats as you are calling them replaced seating in certain German grounds with no consequences and there is more room on the isle of a safe standing seat than anywhere in the current ground You seem to be basing the modern safe standing on the perception of the 80s hooligan fan which we are long way away from "Rail seats as you are calling them" - Because that is what they are called. Look it up. Safe standing is a tag attributed to rail seats. As for the rest of it, if fans are penned into a row with rail seats (which they are, see pics of rail seats on this very thread) then the route of escape in an incident of fans crushing into an isle are much less than with current seats with no rails penning fans into that row. That is simple fact. Whether or not hooliganism will rear it's stupid fat head again in grounds in Europe is up for debate, I'll give you that, I am just trying to give a balanced view of rail seats vs current seats. Go change your pad. Edited February 12, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I really don't think people fully understand that German ground don't actually have terraces but have rail seats that are numbered and allocated and allowed to be folded up just like a current seat but with the addition of rails on the back, making it effectively a penned row. At some matches they have to legally use those seats. They cannot wander around or move through the terrace etc. There can't be dense pockets of fans as you are allocated a seat number, so other than opening up your best singing voice a bit by standing legally it can possibly have that much effect on the atmosphere. Can it? How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 "Rail seats as you are calling them" - Because that is what they are called. Look it up. Safe standing is a tag attributed to rail seats. As for the rest of it, if fans are penned into a row with rail seats (which they are, see pics of rail seats on this very thread) then the route of escape in an incident of fans crushing into an isle are much less than with current seats with no rails penning fans into that row. That is simple fact. Whether or not hooliganism will rear it's stupid fat head again in grounds in Europe is up for debate, I'll give you that, I am just trying to give a balanced view of rail seats vs current seats. Go change your pad. Go change your pad!! :ph34r: I appreciate you are trying to play devils advocate but why are you assuming that there will be crushes on the rows although it will be a new concept in Britain its not a new concept in Europe where it was trialled before installation in much bigger grounds than Hillsborough and in countries that had the same idiot problem as we did and was successful You do what they do in Europe and make standing areas ticket only not POTG that way everyone has a ticket either collected printed or on there phone that way you get friends who want to stand together booking rows together and you don't get the POTG coming in that section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) Go change your pad!! :ph34r: I appreciate you are trying to play devils advocate but why are you assuming that there will be crushes on the rows although it will be a new concept in Britain its not a new concept in Europe where it was trialled before installation in much bigger grounds than Hillsborough and in countries that had the same idiot problem as we did and was successful You do what they do in Europe and make standing areas ticket only not POTG that way everyone has a ticket either collected printed or on there phone that way you get friends who want to stand together booking rows together and you don't get the POTG coming in that section I am pointing out some of the downsides and potential hazards that are obvious just by reading this very thread where some people have this weird notion that they can pocket together in a big crowd, which as you said is not possible in Europe because your ticket ties you to your seat (just as now) and the best you can hope for is that your mates buy up a row or two but even then you are in exactly the same formation as now, due to seating allocations. I honestly think some fans expect to be able to rock up on the day, but a ticket and stand on a terrace, which is not at all what rail seating is about. It took years of trials in Europe to get that message across, so people here would eventually understand that and then I see no reason why rail seats can't be put in. But people have to accept that safe standing is really just alternative seating. Edited February 12, 2016 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMX Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The main drawback to rail seating is that fans are allocated a seat to stand in front of just as we are now and the rows are railed in. It would only take a few idiots trying to force their way into a row they are not allocated into to cause a crush. That is a very real danger, due to each row having big rails to the front and back of it. Also, anyone old enough will remember hoolies running sideways across the terrace to throw things into the crowd or charge the rozzers etc. The rail seats actually make perfect corridors for this to happen, with no seats blocking the route. No matter what technology is introduced the idiots would be the downfall, just like the ones who rear seats up as we are no and launch them. Are you on the wind up here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I am pointing out some of the downsides and potential hazards that are obvious just by reading this very thread where some people have this weird notion that they can pocket together in a big crowd, which as you said is not possible in Europe because your ticket ties you to your seat (just as now) and the best you can hope for is that your mates buy up a row or two but even then you are in exactly the same formation as now, due to seating allocations. I honestly think some fans expect to be able to rock up on the day, but a ticket and stand on a terrace, which is not at all what rail seating is about. It took years of trials in Europe to get that message across, so people here would eventually understand that and then I see no reason why rail seats can't be put in. But people have to accept that safe standing is really just alternative seating. I know what you are saying and know what you are pointing out and on certain points I agree i.e Fans having to re educate them selves on Rows and seat numbers and the fact that its admission by ticket only The points I disagree with you on are 1' that most fans think they will be able to rock up and stand together, I don't think the mass majority think that I think they are aware of what it involves as this debate has been going on for years 2' that it is in some way safer standing now in the seated rows than in the rail seats, I read what you say I just don't think it is, if they made the stand a free for all ie POTG and tickets then you could have that issue but that's solved by what I said before AND better stewarding and policing (something Hillsborough has lacked for a long time) And that's also why I think the rail seating would be better solely on the Kop eliminating the need of the few idiot to charge towards away fans at the far end of the ground like they try on the north Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I know what you are saying and know what you are pointing out and on certain points I agree i.e Fans having to re educate them selves on Rows and seat numbers and the fact that its admission by ticket only The points I disagree with you on are 1' that most fans think they will be able to rock up and stand together, I don't think the mass majority think that I think they are aware of what it involves as this debate has been going on for years 2' that it is in some way safer standing now in the seated rows than in the rail seats, I read what you say I just don't think it is, if they made the stand a free for all ie POTG and tickets then you could have that issue but that's solved by what I said before AND better stewarding and policing (something Hillsborough has lacked for a long time) And that's also why I think the rail seating would be better solely on the Kop eliminating the need of the few idiot to charge towards away fans at the far end of the ground like they try on the north I pretty much agree with all of that. Like I said, trying to point out potential (important word that) issues of rail seating vs current seating. I'm not saying rail seating is dangerous, not at all. Seems like we actually have a very similar viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I pretty much agree with all of that. Like I said, trying to point out potential (important word that) issues of rail seating vs current seating. I'm not saying rail seating is dangerous, not at all. Seems like we actually have a very similar viewpoint. I think we do just coming from different angles It also helps that you've calmed down and changed your pad :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I think we do just coming from different angles It also helps that you've calmed down and changed your pad :laugh: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buxtongent Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 People have overlooked the two factors that caused the Disaster. The first is the actual number of people who tried to get in at the last minute, and the fact that the fans were penned in - i.e. they were unable to spill over onto the pitch. I have often thought, (every time I try to get through the turnstiles on the South, and well before the start of the game) that the design of the turnstiles is so outdated. I am unable to walk easily and must use a stick, and even when entering the ground, have difficulty, a difficulty that I never seem to have anywhere else - theatres, cricket matches, airports etc., and look on in amazement at the speed that people can enter or exit tube stations etc. The first thing that must happen, is that there must be a FIXED limit o the numbers entering any part of any stadium, and the second is an improved entry system It could be that Safe Standing means no POTG, but this can be overcome by kiosks just outside the ground, but it MUST be that there is a specific limit on the numbers entering specific sections and better access to every section. We seem to be looking at the German System,but has anyone studied the American system. Entry to such as Disneyland allows for large numbers entering quickly. I admit I don't know all the answers, but there must be some way. I notice now that one of the latest clubs o be advocating for is no less than LIVERPOOL> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wilyfox Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 The way forward is Recaro seats, waiter service, and foot massages for all. Not standing. Grab a comfy chair and rest ya legs. Singing optional, but compulsory chanting when Colin comes to town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctpgrant Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Rail seating is far safer than standing in seated areas. Picture below is from Birmingham last weekend. A photo posted by Matt Willi! (@mattwilli_86) on Feb 8, 2016 at 12:53pm PST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 People have overlooked the two factors that caused the Disaster. The first is the actual number of people who tried to get in at the last minute, and the fact that the fans were penned in - i.e. they were unable to spill over onto the pitch. I have often thought, (every time I try to get through the turnstiles on the South, and well before the start of the game) that the design of the turnstiles is so outdated. I am unable to walk easily and must use a stick, and even when entering the ground, have difficulty, a difficulty that I never seem to have anywhere else - theatres, cricket matches, airports etc., and look on in amazement at the speed that people can enter or exit tube stations etc. The first thing that must happen, is that there must be a FIXED limit o the numbers entering any part of any stadium, and the second is an improved entry system It could be that Safe Standing means no POTG, but this can be overcome by kiosks just outside the ground, but it MUST be that there is a specific limit on the numbers entering specific sections and better access to every section. We seem to be looking at the German System,but has anyone studied the American system. Entry to such as Disneyland allows for large numbers entering quickly. I admit I don't know all the answers, but there must be some way. I notice now that one of the latest clubs o be advocating for is no less than LIVERPOOL> There already is a fixed limit on the number of people who can enter a part of the ground isn't there? Your ticket allows access to the ground and limits you to your allocated seat, if you do it properly. Nobody else can turn up and grab that seat, unlike the days where POTG allowed vast numbers onto the terrace with no allocation. The new rail seating (safe standing as it is being called) still requires you to stand at your allocated seat so numbers of fans in those areas (if people are not being nawty) is limited to the number of seats sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buxtongent Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It doesn't matter whether you have safe seating, or safe standing, until the attitude of fans alters, both are dangerous. If people will crowd together and behave like drunken yobs, neither system will be safe. Unfortunately, it is not the safe seating/standing that is the problem, but the inherent drunken, idiotic behaviour that is the problem. Until our attitudes change, the problem will remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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