Sheffield Wednesday - The oldest club in professional football

[Pulsar]

Nobody cares about average League One clubs.

Except maybe fans of all league one clubs?

As for marketing and the future,if our historical 'roots' were expanded then the marketing 'branches' would also flourish.

[Arthur Bach]

Except maybe fans of all league one clubs?

As for marketing and the future,if our historical 'roots' were expanded then the marketing 'branches' would also flourish.

We could have been formed by mutated Nazi butterflies for all I care at the moment.

I just want to get promoted.

Again, and not for the first time, if this had been a United proposition we would have laughed it out of the thread.

[Koper]

Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

‘Going forward’ & other horse manure

Here’s a tip for detecting horse manure, both in print and in speech:

If a writer/speaker says “going forward” at any stage, there’s a good chance that (a) they don’t know what they’re talking about, or worse, (b) you’re being lied to.

There are few phrases more meaningless than “going forward”. Unless some unlucky person experiences life “going backward”, then we must assume that everything in life is “going forward” or “from now on”. So why do people say things like “The company needs to implement change going forward“? or “Going forward, we need to examine changes in taxation levels”.

The author Joseph O’Connor recently said of Ireland: “As soon as politicians started using the phrase going forward, the country immediately started going backwards.” This was not a coincidence – the politicians knew bad, bad, bad stuff was hitting the fan and they tried to dress it up when delivering the news to the public.

That is all.

Are you having a flipping laugh

going forward = when your ready, in the future

[Pulsar]

We could have been formed by mutated Nazi butterflies for all I care at the moment.

I just want to get promoted.

Again, and not for the first time, if this had been a United proposition we would have laughed it out of the thread.

I can't really comment if the butterfly rumours are true or not.

However,if it was common knowledge United were formed in 1867 with confirmed roots to a sports club from 1820 then i for one wouldn't be in a position to laugh at them.

I would actually be quite jealous of them..........

[Guest bigblue]

We could have been formed by mutated Nazi butterflies for all I care at the moment.

I just want to get promoted.

Again, and not for the first time, if this had been a United proposition we would have laughed it out of the thread.

Promotion and making our heritage known aren't even connected let alone mutually exclusive. So I don't see what you're getting at? Being apathetic or ambivalent about our heritage is fine, if you're not interested you're not interested; but why would acknowledging the facts be laughed at?

We have the earliest roots of any football club in the world. That's a statement of fact as far as I know. It's also a statement that I, and evidently others, happen to think is worthy of note. If you can cite one with earlier roots, please do; but otherwise, what's your problem with it?

Edited April 29, 2011 by bigblue

[Arthur Bach]

Promotion and making our heritage known aren't even connected let alone mutually exclusive. So I don't see what you're getting at? Being apathetic or ambivalent about our heritage is fine, if you're not interested you're not interested; but why would acknowledging the facts be laughed at?

We have the earliest roots of any football club in the world. That's a statement of fact as far as I know. It's also a statement that I, and evidently others, happen to think is worthy of note. If you can cite one with earlier roots, please do; but otherwise, what's your problem with it?

This is a pretty standard reply and is unfair, our history is of interest to me but is also a personal experience that I feel is special to Sheffield Wednesday yet has little celebratory value in the wider environment.

What struck me was the opening line of the post "...the club using the above title as a new gimmick?" which seem disingenuous and also awkward as we think of how it would be implemented. Would the title be used on livery around the ground? Put on the crest? Would we remove the 1867 motif as a result? Who is the gimmick aimed at?

Then comes the humourous backtrack that in fact Hallam FC have the honour of being the first club to morph into a football club which means we would have to use the slightly less ambitious and more confusing title suggested - the fact is, the link is so tenuous we would have to constantly correct people as they incorrectly called us the oldest, first, original, football, cricket, league, professional whatever making any commercial oppurtunity slight - where would the link end, one of the butchers played lacrosse in 1819?. It is disrespectful to Sheffield F.C. who do use the title as a commercial outlet because their claim is true and is substantial with historical impact.

Then comes the point that not everyone likes or cares about cricket, I am a Sheffield Wednesday supporter and my club was formed in 1867. You ask if any other club has any earlier links and to be frank, I really don't care - any historian worth his salt will find some kind of link to a club but it doesn't mean it would be commercially or historically viable to be used as a gimmick.

This just seems like a case of one-upmanship feeding an egotistical desire to challenge solid facts and records just for the sake - we might be poo poo on the pitch but making ourselves feel better by creating tenuous gimmicks in a bid to out-do Notts County makes us small time. Whats next? Stars on the badge?

[BIG D]

I'm sure Sepp Blatter announced to the world that football was born in China

[ManBehavingBadly]

Plus, I don't remember ever reading that United had a bandy section (bandy was a form of ice hockey).

Bandy was not a form of ice hockey. Bandy is bandy, and it still exists.

[statowl]

Bandy was not a form of ice hockey. Bandy is bandy, and it still exists.

Perhaps I should have phrased it differently.

Bandy is a game which bears many resemblances to hockey, played on ice, outside.

It pre-dates modern ice hockey (as played in the U.S.).

But, as far as I can see, the best way to describe it would be Field Hockey played on ice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandy

[statowl]

What struck me was the opening line of the post "...the club using the above title as a new gimmick?" which seem disingenuous and also awkward as we think of how it would be implemented. Would the title be used on livery around the ground? Put on the crest? Would we remove the 1867 motif as a result? Who is the gimmick aimed at?

Then comes the humourous backtrack that in fact Hallam FC have the honour of being the first club to morph into a football club which means we would have to use the slightly less ambitious and more confusing title suggested - the fact is, the link is so tenuous we would have to constantly correct people as they incorrectly called us the oldest, first, original, football, cricket, league, professional whatever making any commercial oppurtunity slight - where would the link end, one of the butchers played lacrosse in 1819?. It is disrespectful to Sheffield F.C. who do use the title as a commercial outlet because their claim is true and is substantial with historical impact.

Then comes the point that not everyone likes or cares about cricket, I am a Sheffield Wednesday supporter and my club was formed in 1867. You ask if any other club has any earlier links and to be frank, I really don't care - any historian worth his salt will find some kind of link to a club but it doesn't mean it would be commercially or historically viable to be used as a gimmick.

This just seems like a case of one-upmanship feeding an egotistical desire to challenge solid facts and records just for the sake - we might be poo poo on the pitch but making ourselves feel better by creating tenuous gimmicks in a bid to out-do Notts County makes us small time. Whats next? Stars on the badge?

I'm not fussed about us using it as a gimmick to overwhelm to claims of Sheffield Club, Hallam or the Nottingham clubs. I also realise that the history of the club is not going to be of interest to all Wednesdayites. In fact, I suspect it is of little interest to many. However, I do think we should blow our own trumpet and secure our place as an important club in the general history of football. We were at the forefront of the development of the modern game through forward thinking management and our involvement with the Sheffield F.A.

And unlike many clubs (Stoke for one) we have an evidence trail back to our origins. We were connected to the cricket club. We have the statement from the Independent on 6th September 1867,

"SHEFFIELD WEDNESDAY CRICKET CLUB AND FOOTBALL CLUB. – At a general meeting held on Wednesday last, at the Adelphi Hotel, it was decided to form a football club in connection with the above influential cricket club, with the object of keeping together during the winter season the members of this cricket club. From the great unanimity which prevailed as to the desirability of forming the club, there is every reason to expect that it will take first rank. The office bearers were elected as follows: - President, Mr. B. Chatterton; vice-president and treasurer, Mr. F. S. Chambers; hon. Secretary, Mr. Jno. Marsh; assistant, Mr. Castleton. Committee: Messrs Jno. Rodgers, Jno. White, C. Stokes, and H. Bocking. About sixty were enrolled without any canvas, some of them being the best players of the town."

So Sheffield Wednesday were a sports club who played football and cricket, and held athletics meetings at the end of each season.

We were instrumental in the creations of Bramall Lane, Sheffield United, and Yorkshire C.C. We were the winners of the second ever football club competition, with the first ever Golden Goal. Our players took part in the first floodlit match. We had a player in the first official England team. One of our players(William Clegg) was the solicitor for Charlie Peace, the Banner Cross murderer. We had two players in the first England test side.

There are many ways in which we are important, not just because we are the Wednesday, but because of what we have contributed to the game, and I think we should celebrate that. Not through a game of one-upmanship with other clubs, but through our own merits. Whether that will raise our profile and increase our fanbase, I don't know and I don't particularly care. I just think we should blow our own trumpet, because it deserves to be blown.

[31Dec1966]

History and tradition matter a lot to me, and should matter to a lot of people. People in (e.g.) Barrow who decide to follow (e.g.) Chelsea because they won somehting while they were watching TV don't have the club in their blood like I have Wednesday in my blood. The fact that Wednesday have been a constant in my life and have been a part of others before me right back to 1867/1820 is important. We should make the most of our glorious history, it costs nothing and can only increase our prestige and possibly make a bit of money too.

[Guest bigblue]

This is a pretty standard reply and is unfair, our history is of interest to me but is also a personal experience that I feel is special to Sheffield Wednesday yet has little celebratory value in the wider environment.

What struck me was the opening line of the post "...the club using the above title as a new gimmick?" which seem disingenuous and also awkward as we think of how it would be implemented. Would the title be used on livery around the ground? Put on the crest? Would we remove the 1867 motif as a result? Who is the gimmick aimed at?

Then comes the humourous backtrack that in fact Hallam FC have the honour of being the first club to morph into a football club which means we would have to use the slightly less ambitious and more confusing title suggested - the fact is, the link is so tenuous we would have to constantly correct people as they incorrectly called us the oldest, first, original, football, cricket, league, professional whatever making any commercial oppurtunity slight - where would the link end, one of the butchers played lacrosse in 1819?. It is disrespectful to Sheffield F.C. who do use the title as a commercial outlet because their claim is true and is substantial with historical impact.

Then comes the point that not everyone likes or cares about cricket, I am a Sheffield Wednesday supporter and my club was formed in 1867. You ask if any other club has any earlier links and to be frank, I really don't care - any historian worth his salt will find some kind of link to a club but it doesn't mean it would be commercially or historically viable to be used as a gimmick.

This just seems like a case of one-upmanship feeding an egotistical desire to challenge solid facts and records just for the sake - we might be poo poo on the pitch but making ourselves feel better by creating tenuous gimmicks in a bid to out-do Notts County makes us small time. Whats next? Stars on the badge?

I take your point on the gimmick bit. It doesn't need to be over-egged particularly.

The "humorous backtrack" is exactly the same as the relationship between Notts County and Sheffield FC - Hallam are the oldest club in football, we are the oldest club in professional football, Sheffield FC are the oldest as a football club, Notts County are the oldest as a professional football club. Despite that, you celebrate Notts County's claim, but refute ours???

Our history is our history regardless of whether we are any good on the pitch this week. You're only bringing that into it as a way of suggesting that the whole Est. 1820 thing is a way of making ourselves feel better to undermine the main issue - we don't celebrate our history enough.

Your interest in cricket is also of no relevance. I'm not bothered about it either, but that doesn't mean we can/should ignore that part of our heritage. The club was formed in 1820, not 1867.

I'd definitely be happy to see our club crest changed to have the owl (no shield) and simply 1820 underneath. As Kivo said, Bayern Munich use 1860, and why shouldn't they? They were formed then!

I'm not even ashamed of our four league titles like some. England having 1 star (despite this being the modern game's country of origin) is massively more embarrassing than our 4! I'm not necessarily in favour of having stars on the badge, but I don't think Huddersfield or anyone else that does it are in the wrong. They're proud of their heritage, so fair play to them.

I'm not sure there's much of a commercial angle. But that wouldn't be the motivation for me. The "egotistical" angle defitely would. I am 100% unashamedly and fiercely proud of Sheffield Wednesday and wholeheartedly believe that we are BETTER than the rest. It's actually less about what happens on a Saturday afternoon than about our supporters, heritage, honours, tradition - WE ARE WEDNESDAY. I may be a ridiculously biased and often have a distorted biased view of everything blue and white, but I don't care. If the FACT that we were formed before any other professional football club in the world gives us something to shout about and wins a few oneupmanship points - flipping marvellous!!! UTO!

[Arthur Bach]

I take your point on the gimmick bit. It doesn't need to be over-egged particularly.

The "humorous backtrack" is exactly the same as the relationship between Notts County and Sheffield FC - Hallam are the oldest club in football, we are the oldest club in professional football, Sheffield FC are the oldest as a football club, Notts County are the oldest as a professional football club. Despite that, you celebrate Notts County's claim, but refute ours???

Our history is our history regardless of whether we are any good on the pitch this week. You're only bringing that into it as a way of suggesting that the whole Est. 1820 thing is a way of making ourselves feel better to undermine the main issue - we don't celebrate our history enough.

Your interest in cricket is also of no relevance. I'm not bothered about it either, but that doesn't mean we can/should ignore that part of our heritage. The club was formed in 1820, not 1867.

I'd definitely be happy to see our club crest changed to have the owl (no shield) and simply 1820 underneath. As Kivo said, Bayern Munich use 1860, and why shouldn't they? They were formed then!

I'm not even ashamed of our four league titles like some. England having 1 star (despite this being the modern game's country of origin) is massively more embarrassing than our 4! I'm not necessarily in favour of having stars on the badge, but I don't think Huddersfield or anyone else that does it are in the wrong. They're proud of their heritage, so fair play to them.

I'm not sure there's much of a commercial angle. But that wouldn't be the motivation for me. The "egotistical" angle defitely would. I am 100% unashamedly and fiercely proud of Sheffield Wednesday and wholeheartedly believe that we are BETTER than the rest. It's actually less about what happens on a Saturday afternoon than about our supporters, heritage, honours, tradition - WE ARE WEDNESDAY. I may be a ridiculously biased and often have a distorted biased view of everything blue and white, but I don't care. If the FACT that we were formed before any other professional football club in the world gives us something to shout about and wins a few oneupmanship points - flipping marvellous!!! UTO!

Good post. Points taken.

However -

I don't celebrate Notts County's claim, I actually see it like our own i.e. tenuous and fussy compared to sheer simplicity of Sheffield F.C.'s claim.

As cricket has absolutely nothing to do with Wednesday anymore it would be unfair (in spirit) to use the cricket clubs foundation date today. The football club was formed 1867 - in no way, shape or form did a Wednesday exist playing football before that so I see it as year one. What the players did in the summer season is up to them but in 1867 The Wednesday started playing football. Its like when clubs use A.F.C. rather than F.C. because they embraced other sports or institutions. Leeds, Bradford and Sunderland have this suffix I believe.

I'm interested and proud of our personal roots that bore the football club, indeed 1820 may well be the date in which we were techincally formed. But to use it as a barometer against all other clubs and suggest we are the oldest club in football or sport? Nah...

[Lees Tom Cat]

My link

Sheffield FC auctions rules document from 1858

A handwritten pamphlet from 1858 on the rules of club football is to be put up for sale by Sheffield FC.

The document is believed to be one of the earliest instructions on the sport, and will be auctioned as part of an archive belonging to the club.

The archive is expected to fetch up to £1.2m when auctioned in July, and was called an important historical document by auctioneers Sotheby's, the FT said.

Sheffield FC is the world's oldest football club, formed in 1857.

The archive is being taken to Paris, New York and Doha before auction.

"It reflects the fact that football is now truly a global game," said Gabriel Heaton, senior specialist in Sotheby's books department, the FT reported.

'No hacking or tripping'

The pamphlet introduces laws of the game that still exist, such as the indirect free kick, the corner kick and the use of a crossbar.

Another rule states: "Pushing with the hands is allowed but no hacking or tripping is fair under any circumstances whatsoever."

Dr Heaton said although the game was already being played in private schools and Cambridge university, under a variety of different rules, the Sheffield document introduced innovations and removed the game from the elite educational establishment for the first time.

Sheffield FC chairman Richard Tims said the decision to sell the archive was a "tough" one, but had been taken to secure the club's future, the FT reported.

Mr Tims said the decision to sell the archive was sparked by the sale at Sotheby's New York last December of an 1891 document spelling out the rules of basketball for $4.3m, more than double its pre-sale estimate.

"If you are looking for a piece of footballing history, this is the ultimate prize," he said.

[darra]

My link

Sheffield FC auctions rules document from 1858

A handwritten pamphlet from 1858 on the rules of club football is to be put up for sale by Sheffield FC.

The document is believed to be one of the earliest instructions on the sport, and will be auctioned as part of an archive belonging to the club.

The archive is expected to fetch up to £1.2m when auctioned in July, and was called an important historical document by auctioneers Sotheby's, the FT said.

Sheffield FC is the world's oldest football club, formed in 1857.

The archive is being taken to Paris, New York and Doha before auction.

"It reflects the fact that football is now truly a global game," said Gabriel Heaton, senior specialist in Sotheby's books department, the FT reported.

'No hacking or tripping'

The pamphlet introduces laws of the game that still exist, such as the indirect free kick, the corner kick and the use of a crossbar.

Another rule states: "Pushing with the hands is allowed but no hacking or tripping is fair under any circumstances whatsoever."

Dr Heaton said although the game was already being played in private schools and Cambridge university, under a variety of different rules, the Sheffield document introduced innovations and removed the game from the elite educational establishment for the first time.

Sheffield FC chairman Richard Tims said the decision to sell the archive was a "tough" one, but had been taken to secure the club's future, the FT reported.

Mr Tims said the decision to sell the archive was sparked by the sale at Sotheby's New York last December of an 1891 document spelling out the rules of basketball for $4.3m, more than double its pre-sale estimate.

"If you are looking for a piece of footballing history, this is the ultimate prize," he said.

Be nice if Mr Mandaric bought it and gave it back just to keep it where it belongs

IN SHEFFIELD.

[Guest bigblue]

I think that's part of the point of protecting our own heritage for me. Football (modern game as it is today) has it's origins firmly placed in Sheffield - not Nottingham.

Hallam, Sheffield FC and ourselves are the remaining bastions of the legacy that Sheffield gave to the game we all know and love.

We are the first professional club to emerge from the City that gave us the modern game.

My Grandad once told me that his Grandad was convinced that Wednesday played "football" (a form of, at least) against Hallam in-between cricket seasons, long before either formed proper teams. There's no evidence fir this as far as I know though, so it will remain hearsay. I genuinely believe that our club was part of making this fantastic game what it is today.

UTO

[Guest bigblue]

btw I'm not saying there's necessarily any truth in that last bit, or that it's accurate even if there is at least a shred; but I heard it as a kid, so I've grown up thinking it is. So to my mind, and I accept that I'm biased, we deserve a place in the football history books.,

[statowl]

btw I'm not saying there's necessarily any truth in that last bit, or that it's accurate even if there is at least a shred; but I heard it as a kid, so I've grown up thinking it is. So to my mind, and I accept that I'm biased, we deserve a place in the football history books.,

What we need is a history of the cricket club. I might book myself into the local studies library and do some research. I could put it up on a web site.

I used to run http://www.btinternet.com/~a.drake/ but it was a pain trying to update it regularly.

I started up http://swfchistory.wetpaint.com/ because a wiki style site was easier to look after, but it was a bit fussy, so I went for a third web site

http://owlsarchive.weebly.com/, which is easier to use, but I'm not sure about the lay out of the A-Z bit.

I'll start up a cricketing section of the weebly site and see how that goes.