The Batman Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Scram have you noticed this throughout the season though? Surely we must conceded free kicks in similar positions before now? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I would remember if the marking was highlighted as an issue. So can you blame the coaching? Or is it simply a case of new back 4? Or (dare I ask) losing our captain? Why the sudden problem? What's the difference because it's not the coaching unless Irvine has changed it recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davey_wells Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 While you could point the finger at injuries, not starting Heff & poor marking I think it was as much to do with the introduction of a very downbeat, unmotivated and unprepared Mark Beevers that caused the problems. He knows he hasn't got a future here. I also think that Darren Purse's sudden departure hasn't really helped. Team & club captain hounded out (whether for the greater good or not) will have shook the changing room - particularly those who have been here a while. It all comes back to a very awkward situation of AI not being Mandaric's man. Decisions on signings and team selections (in the example of Purse) have suddenly been taken out of his hands somewhat. However this isn't a 'leave off AI' argument - I really don't think he should be in charge and our already decent squad is now even better so SHOULD be top 4 right now at least - but preparations for Saturday would certainly not been helped by circumstances & decisions that actually, and unfortunately for AI, in the long-run be beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy bunny Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 zonal or non-zonal, they all require a modicum of inspiration, belief and discipline all three of those basic and fundamental elements of the game originate from the training ground and dressing room an understanding of these elements takes time to develope, the only problem is knowing how much time to allow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Scram have you noticed this throughout the season though? Surely we must conceded free kicks in similar positions before now? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I would remember if the marking was highlighted as an issue. So can you blame the coaching? Or is it simply a case of new back 4? Or (dare I ask) losing our captain? Why the sudden problem? What's the difference because it's not the coaching unless Irvine has changed it recently. They were very basic mistakes - total lapses odf concentration at best - at worst total misunderstanding of their roles - even a pub player knows to attck the ball if it comes to them near enough that they're the player who has to deal with it Maybe it's a lack of trust and confidence between new defensive partners not wuite knowing who is supposed to be doing what? The starting positions in the Orient game looked wrong - like they had no leeway to attack the ball unless it was a crap ball into the box and dropped short I mean in this particular game there is no real forensoc analysis to be done - ie where were the midfield? How did the free kicks come about etc etc - it was rank rotten defending and even if the coaching hasn't been all that (i dunno.... just saying) those defender should be pretty embarrassed at what they produced - it was parks stuff - and not just once but 3 times in half an hour As for Purse? It could well have been nothing more than just simple, effective organisation - Purse does that pretty well - would it have been enough? Who knows? BTW - i think we'll see Purse in a slightly different light soon - he's not there to blame but they were as bad as any goals we have conceded in ages - all in one game Not exonerating Purse from his mistakes - but it might just show that something more systematic and integral was at play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willy Fitzwinders Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Zonal marking or not (which i'm not a huge fan of tbh) the players cannot be completey exonerated for that schoolboy defending - and if we are zonal then we don't need 4 players marking each other centrally while their player stands at the back post to nod the ball in unnopposed correct and coaching or not, players have to be able to think.presumably unfamiliarity played some part yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Briscoe Inferno Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) They were very basic mistakes - total lapses odf concentration at best - at worst total misunderstanding of their roles - even a pub player knows to attck the ball if it comes to them near enough that they're the player who has to deal with it Maybe it's a lack of trust and confidence between new defensive partners not wuite knowing who is supposed to be doing what? The starting positions in the Orient game looked wrong - like they had no leeway to attack the ball unless it was a crap ball into the box and dropped short I mean in this particular game there is no real forensoc analysis to be done - ie where were the midfield? How did the free kicks come about etc etc - it was rank rotten defending and even if the coaching hasn't been all that (i dunno.... just saying) those defender should be pretty embarrassed at what they produced - it was parks stuff - and not just once but 3 times in half an hour As for Purse? It could well have been nothing more than just simple, effective organisation - Purse does that pretty well - would it have been enough? Who knows? BTW - i think we'll see Purse in a slightly different light soon - he's not there to blame but they were as bad as any goals we have conceded in ages - all in one game Not exonerating Purse from his mistakes - but it might just show that something more systematic and integral was at play Indeed..... Edited January 24, 2011 by Briscoe Inferno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torryowl Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 manager not good enough ,coaches no ones ever heard of , majority of players not as good as they think they are ......we are a flipping shambles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Baron Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) Zonal marking so high up the pitch leaving a huge gap for Orient to exploit. Which they did THREE times. Looked to me after watchin the goals that even the players couldn't believe what they had been asked to do. IRVINE HAS NO CLUE - DEFENCE MIDFIELD ATTACK There is no proper coaching at the club - That was Sunday League defending set up ............. no thats wrong you wouldn't dare defend like that in the park. ABSOLUTELY flippingRIDICULOUS MANAGEMENT AND COACHING IRVINE................... There is a current obsession within the coaching world with defences playing a high line and pressing the other team immediately the ball has been cleared by the defence. Unless you have the right players, pace in your defence and a fantastic understanding of the system developed over many hours on the training ground and players building an understanding over many games this is absolute suicide. There are very few youngsters in this country who are brought up playing a zonal marking system, man marking is how we all learn how to play the game so what is the obsession with trying to change this? Coaches often need to prove to everyone that they are tactical geniuses and justify their coaching awards. They over complicate the game, football is a very simple game when played well, there was nothing complicated about Liverpool and Leeds United in the '70's or Manchester United now so why do the sides with less ability try and do something that the better sides don't do? Edited January 24, 2011 by The Baron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldishowl Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 There is a current obsession within the coaching world with defences playing a high line and pressing the other team immediately the ball has been cleared by the defence. Unless you have the right players, pace in your defence and a fantastic understanding of the system developed over many hours on the training ground and players building an understanding over many games this is absolute suicide. There are very few youngsters in this country who are brought up playing a zonal marking system, man marking is how we all learn how to play the game so what is the obsession with trying to change this? Coaches often need to prove to everyone that they are tactical geniuses and justify their coaching awards. They over complicate the game, football is a very simple game when played well, there was nothing complicated about Liverpool and Leeds United in the '70's or Manchester United now so why do the sides with less ability try and do something that the better sides don't do? I have been to every home game this season and a few away and never seen us use zonal marking, so if he did on Saturday it is the first time . We pick up man to man and usually lose them as they move and we don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark$ide Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 I have been to every home game this season and a few away and never seen us use zonal marking, so if he did on Saturday it is the first time . We pick up man to man and usually lose them as they move and we don't You can't understand what zonal marking is then, as we have been using for ALL set piece defending since AI was appointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Baron Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I have been to every home game this season and a few away and never seen us use zonal marking, so if he did on Saturday it is the first time . We pick up man to man and usually lose them as they move and we don't I have watched us a few times and struggled to work out whether we are attempting to mark zonally or man to man! I think we have over complicated things and totally confused our players to the point where they look like rabbits caught in headlights. You only have to watch our substitutes when they are brought on, they are given a ten minute talk by one of our badged warriors before being shown more confusing pieces of paper than a DFS customer in a recession! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark$ide Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 I have watched us a few times and struggled to work out whether we are attempting to mark zonally or man to man! I think we have over complicated things and totally confused our players to the point where they look like rabbits caught in headlights. You only have to watch our substitutes when they are brought on, they are given a ten minute talk by one of our badged warriors before being shown more confusing pieces of paper than a DFS customer in a recession! We have two different systems depending on the situation...... For set pieces its zonal and always has been under AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raynaldo71 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) I have been to every home game this season and a few away and never seen us use zonal marking, so if he did on Saturday it is the first time . We pick up man to man and usually lose them as they move and we don't ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ bang on sir Edited January 24, 2011 by raynaldo71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark$ide Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 2nd Goal Four players stood in a line at the front of the six yard line. ALL marking space not players. Numerous LO unmarked as the players were defending the space not players. Watchs the goals. You can see our defense lined up as a group of four players concentrating on position. No one marking anyone. You can see it on ALL set piece goals that we concede............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 2nd Goal Four players stood in a line at the front of the six yard line. ALL marking space not players. Numerous LO unmarked as the players were defending the space not players. Watchs the goals. You can see our defense lined up as a group of four players concentrating on position. No one marking anyone. You can see it on ALL set piece goals that we concede............................. That was probably the most hideously embarrassing goal we have conceded for years - wtf were the defenders thinking of? As i said yesterday the only way that could have been effective is if it were a really poor delivery into the box from Orient - then 4 of them could have challenged each other to clear it! The other 2 goals from free play weren't much better either tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark$ide Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 That was probably the most hideously embarrassing goal we have conceded for years - wtf were the defenders thinking of? As i said yesterday the only way that could have been effective is if it were a really poor delivery into the box from Orient - then 4 of them could have challenged each other to clear it! The other 2 goals from free play weren't much better either tbh I'm not going mad am i ? Thats an attempt at a zonal marking system for set plays etc. Its what we have been using on set pieces ever since AI has been at the club ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 That was probably the most hideously embarrassing goal we have conceded for years - wtf were the defenders thinking of? As i said yesterday the only way that could have been effective is if it were a really poor delivery into the box from Orient - then 4 of them could have challenged each other to clear it! The other 2 goals from free play weren't much better either tbh None of the goals came from free play, 1, pen and 3 free kicks that ended in goals as a direct result of good deliveries and bad marking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 None of the goals came from free play, 1, pen and 3 free kicks that ended in goals as a direct result of good deliveries and bad marking. I thought somebody might comment on that - i was just trying to distinguish between 3 goals and the penalty - when the ball leaves the foot of the free kick taker it is in free play - not so when a penalty has been struck Semantics either way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm not going mad am i ? Thats an attempt at a zonal marking system for set plays etc. Its what we have been using on set pieces ever since AI has been at the club ! Has it been a huge problem before though? Or is it just a case of new players or lack of leadership/organisation or whatever. AI has been here over 12 months now, this hasn't been highlighted as a major issue before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now