Loovens on Sheffield Wednesday, Carlos, and Jos Luhukay

[DJMortimer]

12 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

My main takeaway from that is that you haven't included Loovens and Carlos had to play Van Aken 20 times - recipe for disaster at the back! 

 

Also depends on when the injuries occurred, the Utd performance was abysmal defensively but we got results around that game and were in the top half. We lost 7 in a row leading to Carlos leaving - if that was when the main members of the squad were injured then it is no coincidence. 

 

We lost the last 3 before he left, and drew the 4 before that. Although there was a sizeable problem with injuries when Carvalhal left (Westwood, Loovens, Lees, Bannan, Lee, Forestieri, Fletcher), let's be honest; the rot was already setting in before that. And from some accounts, he was responsible for some of these issues in the first place.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DJMortimer said:

 

We lost the last 3 before he left, and drew the 4 before that. Although there was a sizeable problem with injuries when Carvalhal left (Westwood, Loovens, Lees, Bannan, Lee, Forestieri, Fletcher), let's be honest; the rot was already setting in before that. And from some accounts, he was responsible for some of these issues in the first place.

 

The rot had set in and it was time for a change because he was clearly pining for the PL job that he had already been offered and it looked more and more like he wasn't going to do it with us. 

However, prior to that run of 4 points from 7 games our league position wasn't disastrous so the injuries at that point did then have an impact.

[Nero]

Agree with Loovens to a point.

I watched the Wednesday Newcastle home game yesterday. We were much the better side for much of the game and deservedly won. We were also tactically excellent in possession with Hooper and Wallace outstanding. Carvahal deserved the credit he got that day for out thinking Rafa. Seems these days we can only seek to muster a decent defensive shape and a counter attack. We aren't anywhere near as good today as we were in Carlos season 2. But he bottled Huddersfield

And...Carlos Season 3 wasn't just about injuries, he changed shape to try and attack more. We just ended up exposing our centre halves. Whatever he had here, he lost it through his own decisions.

 

[DJMortimer]

Just now, hirstyboywonder said:

 

The rot had set in and it was time for a change because he was clearly pining for the PL job that he had already been offered and it looked more and more like he wasn't going to do it with us. 

However, prior to that run of 4 points from 7 games our league position wasn't disastrous so the injuries at that point did then have an impact.

 

I'm not suggesting the injuries had no impact; it was after all more than half of the potential starting eleven. The post of mine I quoted from 2018 was replying to the idea that Luhukay's situation at that point was no different to Carvlahal's, which was clearly not true. It actually got considerably worse after Carlos left. For example, in the home game against Villa a few weeks later, the only full-time starters in the line-up were Pudil (forced to be at centre back though) and Reach, plus Hunt who was basically in a job share with Palmer.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

I'm not suggesting the injuries had no impact; it was after all more than half of the potential starting eleven. The post of mine I quoted from 2018 was replying to the idea that Luhukay's situation at that point was no different to Carvlahal's, which was clearly not true. It actually got considerably worse after Carlos left. For example, in the home game against Villa a few weeks later, the only full-time starters in the line-up were Pudil (forced to be at centre back though) and Reach, plus Hunt who was basically in a job share with Palmer.

 

Not sure the line ups for that game compared with Carlos last game could be described as considerably worse.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42375399

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43093649

 

Hooper and Wallace fair enough but then Wallace got injured. Carlos didn't have Hunt in the team who he preferred to Palmer, Pudil may have been in an unfamiliar role but I preferred him doing that to Van Aken and it became clear that Jos wasn't picking Hutchinson even if he was fit. Jos also had Loovens in the squad. 

[Nut]

I'd heard from someone at the club that Hutchinson wasn't playing under Jos because he wouldn't play for the u23s to prove his fitness after injury and this interview backs that up. Seems strange though that Loovens is saying Jos was strict about players proving their fitness after injury yet he was rushed back. Were we so short no one else could play there or were there different rules for Loovens I wonder. 

[DJMortimer]

1 hour ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Not sure the line ups for that game compared with Carlos last game could be described as considerably worse.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42375399

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43093649

 

Hooper and Wallace fair enough but then Wallace got injured. Carlos didn't have Hunt in the team who he preferred to Palmer, Pudil may have been in an unfamiliar role but I preferred him doing that to Van Aken and it became clear that Jos wasn't picking Hutchinson even if he was fit. Jos also had Loovens in the squad. 

 

Then I can only point you back to my post from 2018. Apart from the last few games of Carvalhal's time here, the two situations were night and day.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, DJMortimer said:

 

Then I can only point you back to my post from 2018. Apart from the last few games of Carvalhal's time here, the two situations were night and day.

 

 

And as I say, the last few games - 4 points from 7 games as you mention, is when our league position went south and was seemingly unrecoverable in terms of being anywhere near contention that season.

[Bluesteel]

19 hours ago, Owls-Fan said:

Just read that online, interesting to hear Carlos was so respected as a coach.

 

Looking back from the fans perspective I remember we were fed up with his stubbornness to try different things, his apparent blame in players being brought back too quickly from injury and poor dealings in transfer windows.  Whether he was actually to blame for all of those things is probably still uncertain.  Had we managed to get Sean Morrison as he wanted then our defence would have been a hell of a lot better since that time.
 

It’s probably a reflection on how things are now, that I’m starting to feel getting rid of Carlos may have been a mistake. Though in reality I still put most blame at Chansiri and his advisors door.   
 

 

I think it was the right time for Carlos to go. Ran out of steam and it happens throughout his career, he makes a big impact and then it seems to wane for whatever reason.

 

That first two seasons were excellent, but the lack of pace and height really cost us promotion. He didn’t like “bouncers” but you need a few.

 

Hes one of the best weve had but we’ve not recovered from his spell here either. Costly squad burnt out and unshiftable. 
 

Loovens was quality too and we’ve still not replaced him either. Borner probably the closest. But given how he struggled at Sunderland it was probably right to see him move on too, even as a bit part player. 
 

Covid19 and points deductions throw a cat amongst the pigeons but next season is the real chance to end the legacy of those two seasons.

[Bluesteel]

3 hours ago, Nero said:

Agree with Loovens to a point.

I watched the Wednesday Newcastle home game yesterday. We were much the better side for much of the game and deservedly won. We were also tactically excellent in possession with Hooper and Wallace outstanding. Carvahal deserved the credit he got that day for out thinking Rafa. Seems these days we can only seek to muster a decent defensive shape and a counter attack. We aren't anywhere near as good today as we were in Carlos season 2. But he bottled Huddersfield

And...Carlos Season 3 wasn't just about injuries, he changed shape to try and attack more. We just ended up exposing our centre halves. Whatever he had here, he lost it through his own decisions.

 

I agree with much of this. We were excellent when it clicked, ie when hooper and Forestieri were able to link the play. But despite the move toward being pragmatic and winning “ugly” we didn’t have that ugly side to us at all. Had we been able to counter attack with a player like Harris in that side or had a Luongo type to cover for Hutchinson’s many lay offs or a defender who may not pass the ball but was a commanding presence then I think we’d have gone up. I don’t think we’d have dropped points at Leeds or surrendered 3 points away at ten man brighton for example.

 

 

Losing Wallace early in the play off semi to Huddersfield really cost us as he and Bannan were pulling strings but second half (and the Hudds away leg) all we needed was a bit of pace in the team to ease the pressure. The following season we were easily the slowest team in the league.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Bluesteel

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Nero said:

Agree with Loovens to a point.

I watched the Wednesday Newcastle home game yesterday. We were much the better side for much of the game and deservedly won. We were also tactically excellent in possession with Hooper and Wallace outstanding. Carvahal deserved the credit he got that day for out thinking Rafa. Seems these days we can only seek to muster a decent defensive shape and a counter attack. We aren't anywhere near as good today as we were in Carlos season 2. But he bottled Huddersfield

And...Carlos Season 3 wasn't just about injuries, he changed shape to try and attack more. We just ended up exposing our centre halves. Whatever he had here, he lost it through his own decisions.

 

 

When were these days? Can't remember too many of them in the last 15 matches.

 

Season 3 was time to go, we lost what we had through a combination of feeling sorry four ourselves on chances missed two seasons in a row, injuries, Carlos pining over a PL job he had been offered and not strengthening in key areas.    

[Hitcat]

Lenn Groovens.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

9 hours ago, Bluesteel said:

I agree with much of this. We were excellent when it clicked, ie when hooper and Forestieri were able to link the play. But despite the move toward being pragmatic and winning “ugly” we didn’t have that ugly side to us at all. Had we been able to counter attack with a player like Harris in that side or had a Luongo type to cover for Hutchinson’s many lay offs or a defender who may not pass the ball but was a commanding presence then I think we’d have gone up. I don’t think we’d have dropped points at Leeds or surrendered 3 points away at ten man brighton for example.

 

 

Losing Wallace early in the play off semi to Huddersfield really cost us as he and Bannan were pulling strings but second half (and the Hudds away leg) all we needed was a bit of pace in the team to ease the pressure. The following season we were easily the slowest team in the league.

Harris and Luongo wouldn't be anywhere close to getting in our 2016 side IMO... and therein lies the problem. We've steadily replaced very good players who just fell short with bang average ones until we've got to the point where most of our squad are bang average. Both of those are mid table championship players... Harris is one dimensional and has never really been a mainstay anywhere else (barely played last couple of years at Cardiff) and Luongo played for 3 years in a lower mid table QPR team.

 

We didn't need to change much at all from where we were... just add that extra bit of quality up front (which we did in Fletcher, and in theory with Rhodes which was a flop). Plus we needed more quality out wide as we only really had Wallace and a midfielder with power and pace to complement Lee, Bannan and Hutchinson, a Diame type. Instead we got David Jones and Abdi, the first of which was just an older version of what we already had and the latter was a joke. And maybe more quality/cover at fullback and centre half to push Pudil/Hunt or replace Loovens. Instead we got Van Aken, Fox and had to put Palmer in as first choice RB.

 

It's so frustrating to think we were 4-5 players away from being capable of automatic promotion and probably being competitive in the Prem thereafter, yet now we basically need to start over from scratch as we have hardly any players capable of playing at the top of the championship never mind in the Prem.

[poite]

He makes out that Jos just played young players when the more experienced first reamers were injured. Whilst that was true on some cases it's not in others. 

 

It was quite clear that Jos had an agenda to get rid of the older players and froze them out for young blood. Players like Westwood and Hutch had no chance of returning under Jos

[Bluesteel]

5 hours ago, LondonOwl313 said:

Harris and Luongo wouldn't be anywhere close to getting in our 2016 side IMO... and therein lies the problem. We've steadily replaced very good players who just fell short with bang average ones until we've got to the point where most of our squad are bang average. Both of those are mid table championship players... Harris is one dimensional and has never really been a mainstay anywhere else (barely played last couple of years at Cardiff) and Luongo played for 3 years in a lower mid table QPR team.

 

We didn't need to change much at all from where we were... just add that extra bit of quality up front (which we did in Fletcher, and in theory with Rhodes which was a flop). Plus we needed more quality out wide as we only really had Wallace and a midfielder with power and pace to complement Lee, Bannan and Hutchinson, a Diame type. Instead we got David Jones and Abdi, the first of which was just an older version of what we already had and the latter was a joke. And maybe more quality/cover at fullback and centre half to push Pudil/Hunt or replace Loovens. Instead we got Van Aken, Fox and had to put Palmer in as first choice RB.

 

It's so frustrating to think we were 4-5 players away from being capable of automatic promotion and probably being competitive in the Prem thereafter, yet now we basically need to start over from scratch as we have hardly any players capable of playing at the top of the championship never mind in the Prem.

Luongos energy, experience as a captain, one of the best tacklers in the league couldn’t get into a side that couldn’t tackle without Hutchinson?

 

Harris would’ve been a better option than Matias when we needed to change a game or play on the counter such as the Huddersfield semis. There was no pace or direct running in the side and whilst the likes of Harris aren’t as technical as Wallace or some of the others we had in 2016 they were two of the three ingredients missing. Plus an aggressive Centre half.

The 2015/16 side is already becoming better in memory than it actually was. We were excellent on the ball when teams let us have it, but if things didn’t suit us such as at Wembley or away at Preston we were screwed. There was loads to do after the play off final. Reach and Fletcher ticked two boxes. We even signed wingers and then didn’t play them. Jones looked more of the same rather than what we actually needed.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Bluesteel

[Guest LondonOwl313]

3 hours ago, Bluesteel said:

Luongos energy, experience as a captain, one of the best tacklers in the league couldn’t get into a side that couldn’t tackle without Hutchinson?

 

Harris would’ve been a better option than Matias when we needed to change a game or play on the counter such as the Huddersfield semis. There was no pace or direct running in the side and whilst the likes of Harris aren’t as technical as Wallace or some of the others we had in 2016 they were two of the three ingredients missing. Plus an aggressive Centre half.

The 2015/16 side is already becoming better in memory than it actually was. We were excellent on the ball when teams let us have it, but if things didn’t suit us such as at Wembley or away at Preston we were screwed. There was loads to do after the play off final. Reach and Fletcher ticked two boxes. We even signed wingers and then didn’t play them. Jones looked more of the same rather than what we actually needed.

2016 Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson (plus Lopez) were far better players than Luongo. He’s ok, not terrible but not great either. He’d have been a squad player at the time but wouldn’t have improved us. We needed a Diame or a Tom Huddlestone or a Carlton Palmer type to improve and Luongo isn’t as good as those.

 

Harris doesn’t have the footballing intelligence or technical quality to get in that side. He would stand out like a sore thumb.. watch back some of the games that have been put on YouTube by the club, the whole team moves together. We needed an Antonio type winger to improve. Harris is more JJ but without the odd spectacular goal. Matias wasn’t amazing but he was still a better player than Harris.. but wasn’t fit and available anywhere near enough. Nobody would sign Harris as the missing piece to gain promotion. There’s a reason he only played 70 games in 7 years at Cardiff, was released by Warnock, played only 3 games in their promotion season and spent the rest of his time in the lower leagues. It’s because he’s not good enough for where we want to go.

[Bluesteel]

3 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

2016 Bannan, Lee and Hutchinson (plus Lopez) were far better players than Luongo. He’s ok, not terrible but not great either. He’d have been a squad player at the time but wouldn’t have improved us. We needed a Diame or a Tom Huddlestone or a Carlton Palmer type to improve and Luongo isn’t as good as those.

 

Harris doesn’t have the footballing intelligence or technical quality to get in that side. He would stand out like a sore thumb.. watch back some of the games that have been put on YouTube by the club, the whole team moves together. We needed an Antonio type winger to improve. Harris is more JJ but without the odd spectacular goal. Matias wasn’t amazing but he was still a better player than Harris.. but wasn’t fit and available anywhere near enough. Nobody would sign Harris as the missing piece to gain promotion. There’s a reason he only played 70 games in 7 years at Cardiff, was released by Warnock, played only 3 games in their promotion season and spent the rest of his time in the lower leagues. It’s because he’s not good enough for where we want to go.

Hutchinson was often unavailable and he was the enforcer of the midfield. Lopez has some kind of cult status but he wasn’t the answer either, Luongo has north of 150 championship appearances and 50 international caps playing a fairly selfless role compared to the more attacking one that earned him the move to QPR. Just watch him in an attacking role for Swindon and he’s more like Forestieri.
 

Lopez overrated, Luongo massively underrated which is why we got him. Whether it was someone of Diames build (I understand we tried to sign him but for Newcastle wanting him) or a more compact player, the issue was a lack of aggression or tanacity when we didn’t have the ball. The others were good at what they did but it’s what they couldn’t do. 
 

When Antonio was here one of the main criticisms was that he didn’t really play “football” or let the ball do the work he was exactly like Harris as an outlet to spin the ball down the line to. So he would have also stuck out like a sore thumb compared to Bannan or Wallace in a tight spot but he would’ve also given an entirely different option like JJ, Harris or anyone else, Will Buckley included. But the manager was dogmatic like wenger and thought you had to be a good fives player to be in the team and as a result we were only good on our own terms.

Matias was more a wide striker and was a fish out of water on the wing and wouldn’t take anyone on. Harris miles more effective. 

 

Whether Harris, Luongo, a Carlton Palmer or anyone else the things we lacked were height, pace, athleticism, aggression off the ball. To buy them in to improve the first team ie have them as good technically as the first choice midfield wouldn’t really be viable as they’d be too expensive, (even Reach cost £5m) so to sacrifice some technical ability could be ok, it worked for Brighton, but we just brought more of the same in Jones and Boyd.