Are we in debt?

[modboy]

 

 

And yes, before any posts, you do own it though.

 

and its a worthwhile asset in many ways as its too small and we cant sell it

[BD2OWL]

I've been to the majority and like I say yours is well behind.

 

The games moved on twenty years since the players you mentioned trained, back then academies and training centres didn't exsist, only for the very richest and they weren't anything special.

 

Howard Wilkinson was the pathfinder in the academy world and his vision back then with Thorpe Arch is now the model for most clubs.

 

Have a look at Derbys, Boro's, Blackburn's, Bolton's, Leeds', Huddersfield, Forest, Wolves, Norwich to name a few, and you'll see what I mean.

 

I've not been to Rotherham's but certainly in South Yorkshire, Barnsley and Sheff Utd have better training complexes than yourselves.

 

I don't think anyone who visits Middlewood Road would disagree with me.

 

And yes, before any posts, you do own it though.

 

 

Leeds??

 

A field in the middle of Wetherby ( and yes I have been and played there) which they cannot actually afford to run and a full time basis, and a place that Cellino is itching to get away from, your post lost any validity when you mentioned that.

 

Our academy status has risen and risen quickly in the last few years, and that status is based upon Facilities as much as anything else, so your argument is pretty wee wee poor to be fair.

 

Yes, from the outside Middlewood road looks like a poo poo hole, but when Players like Chris Kirkland, Sam Hutchinson and Kieran Westwood are coming in and saying that the facilities are premier league standard, I think I will take there word over yours. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by BD2OWL

[Guest Big Guns]

Didn't we once tried to sell off the Middlewood Training Ground a few years back to ASDA so that we could move to a new training ground elsewhere in the city?

yep im sure were not allowed to sell it not sure why 

[Guest Johnbloodaxe]

Last published accounts stated SWFC were £11m of debt against the club, that is accounts not from the last financial year but the one before that. Last years financial accounts (summary) has to be lodged with the football league by the end of this calendar year I believe.

 

So if Milan's note that there is a loss of £6mm a year and you take that at face value then the current financial year's debt levels are somewhere in the region of £11mm + £6mm + £6mm = £23mm.

 

Which is very worrying.

 

This is not indicative of actual CASH put in by Milan, which I think will be be significantly less than this in net terms.

 

As much of this debt is book debt, not cash flow, and a good portion of it anyway will be 3rd party loans, such as those charges against the ground and possibly the £6mm original purchase price as a transferred bank loan placed against the club, didn't MM mention a bank loan from Barclays Bank during one interview last year?

 

Anyway that's my speculative view on where the club are right at this moment.

 

I suppose now I've made this post the thread will be transferred to the board room as per usual...

Edited November 27, 2014 by Johnbloodaxe

[Jeffjohnsonmyhero]

Really couldn't give a monkeys if we are or not, if Wednesday went bust tomorrow a little piece of me would die inside but it wouldn't really effect my life in the big scheme of things, apart from the fact I'd have a few more quid each month to spend in one of the supermarkets they'd build where the ground or training ground used to be.

I know how you feel ,we have a team who we are loyal to ,we are ambitious fans like supporters of any big club would be .But and its a big But we have a chairman who is not ,All the happy clappers who come on here forget Milan will sell us for a massive profit when he leaves.£40 million was what HAZIF  was buying us for ,how much profit was that for 2 yrs work ,Where the hell is the competitive side we were to have this yr ,Jesus wept we have not scored since Noah set sail.

[just visiting]

Leeds??

 

A field in the middle of Wetherby ( and yes I have been and played there) which they cannot actually afford to run and a full time basis, and a place that Cellino is itching to get away from, your post lost any validity when you mentioned that.

 

Our academy status has risen and risen quickly in the last few years, and that status is based upon Facilities as much as anything else, so your argument is pretty wee wee poor to be fair.

 

Yes, from the outside Middlewood road looks like a poo poo hole, but when Players like Chris Kirkland, Sam Hutchinson and Kieran Westwood are coming in and saying that the facilities are premier league standard, I think I will take there word over yours. 

Typical response from an ill informed poster.

 

You've been and played there yet call it a field in the middle of Wetherby.

 

Let me say we can afford to run it on a fulltime basis, as we always have done, just because we closed it for two weeks in the summer whilst the senior squad was in Italy and the academy weren't even due to report back doesn't back up your point.

 

Cellino would prefer to own our own facilities and for them to nearer ER, that doesn't mean he is itching to get out.

 

Your academy status hasn't risen and risen quickly over the last few years, you had academy status before the new gradings and you still have academy status now, it has nothing to do with facilities as they are exactly the same now as they were then, the pitches, the dome, the run down 2g pitch. If any thing I would hazzard a guess that unless the dome and 2g pitch aren't brought up standard by the time the next inspection comes round, you'll lose your Cat 2 rating.

 

Premier League standard compared to Hull and probably Burnley, thats it.

 

OIther than that good post.

Edited November 27, 2014 by just visiting

[BD2OWL]

Typical response from an ill informed poster.

 

You've been and played there yet call it a field in the middle of Wetherby.

 

Let me say we can afford to run it on a fulltime basis, as we always have done, just because we closed it for two weeks in the summer whilst the senior squad was in Italy and the academy weren't even due to report back doesn't back up your point.

 

Cellino would prefer to own our own facilities and for them to nearer ER, that doesn't mean he is itching to get out.

 

Your academy status hasn't risen and risen quickly over the last few years, you had academy status before the new gradings and you still have academy status now, it has nothing to do with facilities as they are exactly the same now as they were then, the pitches, the dome, the run down 2g pitch. If any thing I would hazzard a guess that unless the dome and 2g pitch aren't brought up standard by the time the next inspection comes round, you'll lose your Cat 2 rating.

 

Premier League standard compared to Hull and probably Burnley, thats it.

 

OIther than that good post.

Not ill informed, yes I have been and yes I have played there and yes, its a field in the middle of Wetherby.

 

 

We think we have problems, but at least our chairman knows his limitations and has openly come out and said that he needs someone else to pick up the reigns so that we can move forward.

 

Yours however made these key promises:

 

1) Clear your debt, claims he has done but in reality all he has done is defer it

2) Build a squad capable of pushing for promotion (lols)

3) Allow his managers to pick there own players (lols) 

4) Buy Back Elland Road - hmmm what happened there

5) Not sell your prized assets

 

We are all wondering where the £1m(ish) went from the Antonio sale after we bought Stevie May - where did the £11m??

 

Lets be honest, if he had not been in it for £10m by the time he got rejected by The Football League, he would have walked away.

 

Yes, we are not in a great position, but I would guess its better than a fair few in this league.

Edited November 27, 2014 by BD2OWL

[Guest Johnbloodaxe]

Sorry just for clarity, if Milan's quote of running at a £6mm loss this year includes the brought forward debt from the previous financial year then we may only be £15mm or £16mm in debt, SO it shows how misleading quotes taken out of context with no supporting detail can be.

 

That's the problem with PR it can be used to mislead and misinform.

 

So hard to really unravel the figures involved without the detail.

 

Whatever the truth if the detail I would imagine when sold Milan and his group will make a pretty penny or two profit out of SFWC, which is good on him for being a successful businessman and taking the opportunity.

 

Can't fault him on that. SWFC were a very cheap buy at the time.

[Guest Johnbloodaxe]

Not ill informed, yes I have been and yes I have played there and yes, its a field in the middle of Wetherby.

 

 

We think we have problems, but at least our chairman knows his limitations and has openly come out and said that he needs someone else to pick up the reigns so that we can move forward.

 

Yours however made these key promises:

 

1) Clear your debt, claims he has done but in reality all he has done is defer it

2) Build a squad capable of pushing for promotion (lols)

3) Allow his managers to pick there own players (lols) 

4) Buy Back Elland Road - hmmm what happened there

5) Not sell your prized assets

 

We are all wondering where the £1m(ish) went from the Antonio sale after we bought Stevie May - where did the £11m??

 

Lets be honest, if he had not been in it for £10m by the time he got rejected by The Football League, he would have walked away.

 

Yes, we are not in a great position, but I would guess its better than a fair few in this league.

 

 

It just proves they are all the same. It's about making a profit for themselves as businessmen, anyone who thinks differently is absolutely naive in my view. BUT hey that's just my view.

 

You put the debts against the club then take loan management fees etc out and the debt accumulates against the club while you take a decent fee every year.

 

Just business. Nothing wrong or dodgy, just business.

 

It's the spin around it that really annoys me... for god sakes just be honest about it.

 

BUT then the fans would be in uproar wouldn't they?  Demanding new players etc.. so best keep em quiet... tell em owt they'll more often then not swallow it.

 

At least the Glaziers do it out in the open..but then Man Utd. can afford it. but woe betide if they ever drop out of the premiership..

Edited November 27, 2014 by Johnbloodaxe

[modboy]

yep im sure were not allowed to sell it not sure why 

 

the training ground is more or less worthless as the land will not be allowed to be developed on.

 

More of a noose than a bonus for the club

[Guest JonTheOwl66]

I've been to the majority and like I say yours is well behind.

The games moved on twenty years since the players you mentioned trained, back then academies and training centres didn't exsist, only for the very richest and they weren't anything special.

Howard Wilkinson was the pathfinder in the academy world and his vision back then with Thorpe Arch is now the model for most clubs.

Have a look at Derbys, Boro's, Blackburn's, Bolton's, Leeds', Huddersfield, Forest, Wolves, Norwich to name a few, and you'll see what I mean.

I've not been to Rotherham's but certainly in South Yorkshire, Barnsley and Sheff Utd have better training complexes than yourselves.

I don't think anyone who visits Middlewood Road would disagree with me.

And yes, before any posts, you do own it though.

Don't kid yourself. I trained a few times when I was a kid at Leeds and your training complex is garbage.

[HalfFull]

You're obviously on the wind up if you even have to ask, after putting some of the dross we signed in your comment.

Now I see why you go around voting people's posts up or down and rarely comment anything on here.

 

To be fair to Stevie May, he's young and got potential, he's no instant Antonio replacement or answer to our attacking problems though.

Sam Hutchinson is a decent player but his injury record makes him a questionable signging, when you consider our small squad and resources, why waste what little budget we have on injury prone players who rarely play at all? Claude Dielna has barely played. Dejan Kelhar was gone quicker than he arrived. Last season we took chances on the likes of Howard and Sidibe, this season we took a chance on GTF. In the past we've brought in the likes of Bothroyd and disrupted the squad. A lot of those have offered very little, whereas we all know the effect the likes of Barkley, Wickham, Fryatt, Antonio and Best had whilst brought in on loan. Very few of them are brought in permanently after doing so well on loan, so it disrupts the squad even more, when time and time again we are having to fill up huge gaps in our squad with loanees and freebies. It's not easy to bring in the right players even if we had a better budget but it's a lot harder when constantly relying on the free market and the loanee market. It didn't seem like wise business to me to get rid of Antonio for little if any profit, and then bring in a young untried player at this level from the Scottish Premier League, only to build our attacking formation around him and put a lot of pressure on to him. It didn't seem like good business to stick by Madine, only to loan him out and now it looks like we will get next to nothing back in return on him, when we are desperately short of attacking options. Looking at our strikers, none of them look good enough for this level, or are not yet ready and have potential like May and Lavery.

 

My biggest issue with our transfer policy since promotion is the way we seem to dither around during the summer, and then having to play catch up during the season bringing in numerous players in on loan to fill up gaps of our squad, that we should fill up with our own players before the season starts. Loanees can aid a Football League team, we all know that but for the few successes each season, which we rely on, there are numerous failures and baffling loanees brought in that make little or no impact at all or don't even play much whilst here or are played out of position. To me it suggests that this scattergun transfer policy of ours and the way MM wants to do it on the cheap, eventually I can see it catching up with us, as we won't always be so lucky in the desperate and risky loanee market, we won't always get a Wickham, Fryatt or Antonio that come in on loan and have an instant and huge impact  and bail us out during the season. The same can be said of the freebies, although I do acknowledge how well Westwood and Lees have done, but we won't always pick up players of their ilk on free transfers. It's up to you if you believe everything MM says or if you think he's doing well for our club, but at the end of the day people who disagree with some of the things he says and with his methods and his transfer policy of doing things on the cheap, just want the best for the club too.

 

I mentioned 8 signings - Let us look at some of your comments regarding the signings. You take no issue with 4 of the 8 players. Of the other 4, you accept that May is a prospect, Hutchinson is a decent player but injury prone (I think that Hutchinson is an excellent player but injury prone), Dielna hasn't played much because a) he wasn't up to match fitness when he arrived, and b) he has since been kept out of the team because of the excellent form of the defence, Kelhar was injured pre-season and is out long term.

 

I fail to see, therefore, why you believe I am on the wind up. Given your comments, your use of the word 'dross' somewhat ironic. 

 

I note that you make no comment on the comparison between the players signed and the players released; you make no comment on your claim that we are over reliant on loans; you make no comment on the 'game' time of the loanees.

 

As you say I rarely post. If I wanted to wind people up then I would join the legions of people who enjoy deliberately winding people up. To those that enjoy it, have fun.

 

We haven't met, you have no idea who I am and, as you say, I rarely post. Yet from this complete lack of personal information, you now understand why I 'plus' and 'neg' posts.

 

For your information, I 'plus' and 'neg' posts because I feel they deserve 'plussing' or 'negging'. If that is what you gleaned from my so called 'dross' comments, then you are correct. 

 

I look forward to more of your insightful comments about my psyche.

[Corneliusreeve]

Don't kid yourself. I trained a few times when I was a kid at Leeds and your training complex is garbage.

And jon is only 13 now so not that long ago.

[BD2OWL]

It just proves they are all the same. It's about making a profit for themselves as businessmen, anyone who thinks differently is absolutely naive in my view. BUT hey that's just my view.

 

You put the debts against the club then take loan management fees etc out and the debt accumulates against the club while you take a decent fee every year.

 

Just business. Nothing wrong or dodgy, just business.

 

It's the spin around it that really annoys me... for god sakes just be honest about it.

 

BUT then the fans would be in uproar wouldn't they?  Demanding new players etc.. so best keep em quiet... tell em owt they'll more often then not swallow it.

 

At least the Glaziers do it out in the open..but then Man Utd. can afford it. but woe betide if they ever drop out of the premiership

I totally agree.

 

But perhaps if there (Leeds) own house was in order, his comments may have more meaning, as it is, they are in a much worse state than we are.

[Past Member]

Leicester still owe money on there nice new stadium.

 

Even in the state Hillsborough is in, its equity as is the training ground (which is second to none at this level) 

 

 

Hard to know when our fans are being serious or being sarcastic!

[The Night-Owl]

I mentioned 8 signings - Let us look at some of your comments regarding the signings. You take no issue with 4 of the 8 players. Of the other 4, you accept that May is a prospect, Hutchinson is a decent player but injury prone (I think that Hutchinson is an excellent player but injury prone), Dielna hasn't played much because a) he wasn't up to match fitness when he arrived, and b) he has since been kept out of the team because of the excellent form of the defence, Kelhar was injured pre-season and is out long term.

 

I fail to see, therefore, why you believe I am on the wind up. Given your comments, your use of the word 'dross' somewhat ironic. 

 

I note that you make no comment on the comparison between the players signed and the players released; you make no comment on your claim that we are over reliant on loans; you make no comment on the 'game' time of the loanees.

 

As you say I rarely post. If I wanted to wind people up then I would join the legions of people who enjoy deliberately winding people up. To those that enjoy it, have fun.

 

We haven't met, you have no idea who I am and, as you say, I rarely post. Yet from this complete lack of personal information, you now understand why I 'plus' and 'neg' posts.

 

For your information, I 'plus' and 'neg' posts because I feel they deserve 'plussing' or 'negging'. If that is what you gleaned from my so called 'dross' comments, then you are correct. 

 

I look forward to more of your insightful comments about my psyche.

Just look at our squad and compare it with squads in this division.

Since we've been at this level, we've had an handful of Championship quality players of our own, barring the odd quality loanee signing or couple of freebies.

I get tired of having to write the same things over and over, to highlight the impossible job Gray faces, what little effect sacking him would have.

Instead he should've been backed last season, let alone this one, we've been waiting for quality Championship level players of our own (and not freebies or loanees) ever since promotion.

You don't have to converse with me if you don't want to. I just want the best for Wednesday and I'm frustrated with the way the club as been run the past 15 or so years.

 

I will try and compare the dross and decent players we've signed since promotion here's some off the top of my head, there's undoubtedly more though, this is just for an example:

 

Dross signings

Diogo Amado;

Nejc Pecnik,

Danny Mayor,

Martin Taylor,

Anthony Gardner (good experienced player/but injury prone)

Paul Corry (some potential to be fair),

Rhys McCabe (some potential to be fair),

Rafael Floro (some potential to be fair),

Adthe Nuhiu,

Jacques Maghoma,

Kamil Zayatte,

Claude Dielna,

Ognuchi Onyewu,

Sam Hutchinson (good player but injury prone/pointless signing to be harsh but honest),

Jeremy Helan (inconsistent performer/useful squad player/split between dross and decent to be fair)

Dejan Kelhar (experienced player and injury prone but never got to see the best of him because of injury).

 

Some of the dross loanees (probably are quite a few more? This is just an example).

GTF;

Steve Howard,

Jay Bothroyd,

Mammady Sidibe,

Seyi Olofinjana,

Stephen McPhail,

Adedeji Oshilaja,

Jordan Spence,

Rodri,

Benik Afobe,

Hallam Hope, etc

 

Decent signings

Chris Kirkland,

Chris Maguire,

Joe Mattock,

Kieran Lee,

Michail Antonio,

Glenn Loovens,

Tom Lees,

Kieran Westwood.

 

Decent but unproven as of yet

Stevie May,

Jeremy Helan (inconsistent/decent/sometimes poor).

 

Decent but injury prone

Anthony Gardner,

Sam Hutchinson.

 

(Some of the decent loanees, again could be more? Just an example off the top of my head).

We all know the impact Antonio had pre-promotion but these are an example of the players who've had some positive impact since promotion whilst on loan.

Connor Wickham;

Matty Fryatt,

Leon Best,

Leroy Lita,

Ross Barkley,

Roger Johnson,

Sam Hutchinson,

Gary Gardner,

Jeremy Helan,

Royston Drenthe,

Lewis McGugan (hasn't showed his quality yet but once fit I expect he should?)

[HalfFull]

Just look at our squad and compare it with squads in this division.

Since we've been at this level, we've had an handful of Championship quality players of our own, barring the odd quality loanee signing or couple of freebies.

I get tired of having to write the same things over and over, to highlight the impossible job Gray faces, what little effect sacking him would have.

Instead he should've been backed last season, let alone this one, we've been waiting for quality Championship level players of our own (and not freebies or loanees) ever since promotion.

You don't have to converse with me if you don't want to. I just want the best for Wednesday and I'm frustrated with the way the club as been run the past 15 or so years.

 

I will try and compare the dross and decent players we've signed since promotion here's some off the top of my head, there's undoubtedly more though, this is just for an example:

 

Dross signings

Diogo Amado;

Nejc Pecnik,

Danny Mayor,

Martin Taylor,

Anthony Gardner (good experienced player/but injury prone)

Paul Corry (some potential to be fair),

Rhys McCabe (some potential to be fair),

Rafael Floro (some potential to be fair),

Adthe Nuhiu,

Jacques Maghoma,

Kamil Zayatte,

Claude Dielna,

Ognuchi Onyewu,

Sam Hutchinson (good player but injury prone/pointless signing to be harsh but honest),

Jeremy Helan (inconsistent performer/useful squad player/split between dross and decent to be fair)

Dejan Kelhar (experienced player and injury prone but never got to see the best of him because of injury).

 

Some of the dross loanees (probably are quite a few more? This is just an example).

GTF;

Steve Howard,

Jay Bothroyd,

Mammady Sidibe,

Seyi Olofinjana,

Stephen McPhail,

Adedeji Oshilaja,

Jordan Spence,

Rodri,

Benik Afobe,

Hallam Hope, etc

 

Decent signings

Chris Kirkland,

Chris Maguire,

Joe Mattock,

Kieran Lee,

Michail Antonio,

Glenn Loovens,

Tom Lees,

Kieran Westwood.

 

Decent but unproven as of yet

Stevie May,

Jeremy Helan (inconsistent/decent/sometimes poor).

 

Decent but injury prone

Anthony Gardner,

Sam Hutchinson.

 

(Some of the decent loanees, again could be more? Just an example off the top of my head).

We all know the impact Antonio had pre-promotion but these are an example of the players who've had some positive impact since promotion whilst on loan.

Connor Wickham;

Matty Fryatt,

Leon Best,

Leroy Lita,

Ross Barkley,

Roger Johnson,

Sam Hutchinson,

Gary Gardner,

Jeremy Helan,

Royston Drenthe,

Lewis McGugan (hasn't showed his quality yet but once fit I expect he should?)

 

My initial response was to disagree with your statement that "Each year our recruitment gets worse and worse, we make a bigger wee wee tail up of the summer each year".  

 

I asked you to compare signings for this season and compare them to the people they have replaced i.e. a season on season comparison. You haven't done that. Instead you are now going to change your initial generalization to find 'dross' players since promotion.

 

I asked you to identify this season's 'dross' signings. 15 of the 17 you list were not signed this season. Of the other two, one has been injured all season, the other appears both on your 'dross' list and on the list of loanees who have made a positive contribution. You are making a very good case for showing that improvement has been made from last year to this.

The eleven 'dross' loanees you list include 9 from last season, and 2 from this season both of which are no longer with us. 

 

I originally responded because I disagreed with your statement. As yet you have done nothing to make me change my mind. I also responded to try to show that sweeping generalizations are more difficult to defend than statements based on fact/research.