Alan Irvine - One of the top coaches in the country?

[Guest starrydave]

I always thought it was odd the reputation that Irvine has managed to achieve within the game. He obviously did a very good job at Everton, and he has carried this reputation into management.

But then surely, a good coach does not always make a good manager. The skillset of a good coach is to ensure that the players are physically fit, and are able to maintain and improve their technical attributes over time, as well as trying to keep players injury free.

To large extent, I am certain that Irvine is probably the very best coach we have ever had at Hillsborough. Our players do seam to maintain their fitness better, get less injuries (I know this is also improvements to sports medicine), and I am sure that the players get absolute first rate technical training as well.

But the attributes that make a good coach do not always make a good manager (just look at Sammy Lee, Best assistant manager in country, but a shocking manager!)

What is the managers job at the end of the day?

1. To pick the team.

2. Deploy the team using tactics that will get results.

3. Motivate the team to get the job done.

4. Oversee training and ensure players prepared for next games.

I am sure that Irvine is cracking at point 4, but how good is he at the other stuff? Surely his record against the top teams in the division show that our players are not set up to win, or have the right mentality to achieve a good result.

So my conclusion is this - Alan Irvine would make an absolutely magnificent senior coach or Assistant Manager (one of the best in the country), but he is does not (yet at least, things can change) possess the credentials IMHO to be a competitive manager.

Dave,

P.S, I actually think that AI will have a bright managerial future, though I think he needs to do the rounds at a couple of smaller clubs before moving back into the big time.

[goh]

I have no doubts of Irvines coaching ability.

In fact you can see improvements in certain things (eg Beevers at corners)

[Guest starrydave]

I have no doubts of Irvines coaching ability.

In fact you can see improvements in certain things (eg Beevers at corners)

Good point actually, I hadnt thought about that!

[Guest Mexico Baby]

Never been convinced about so called top coaches,Is it a coincidence that they generally earn the tag while working under excellent managers?

[Guest Sheff Owl]

Brian Kidd - is another name.

[SiJ]

When was the last time you heard someone described as "not well thought of in the game?"

Just seems a generic term describing a bunch of generic coaches.

These are all guys who have gone through the system, got those coaching badges etc.

When was the last time that anyone heard a manager say "Well. . he deserved to get the sack"?

Doesn't happen, does it?!

There are lots of good managers out there, but there is also a hell of a lot of mediocrity.

The best manages, for me personally, are those who can motivate the players on a personal level.

Leave the coaching, to the erm coaches, getting on with motivating, inspiring, and so forth.

Edited January 4, 2011 by SiJ

[Utah Owl]

Some excellent pots here. I agree, a top coach does not necessarily make a top manager and we need the latter.

[Guest starrydave]

agree with managers role there sij.

Personally though, I think Irvine probably is a damn good coach. You dont get to be Moyes number two without being pretty good IMO.

[Guest aj_owl]

I have no doubts of Irvines coaching ability.

In fact you can see improvements in certain things (eg Beevers at corners)

That definetly has improved. However the rest of his game has gone to pot.

[SiJ]

agree with managers role there sij.

Personally though, I think Irvine probably is a damn good coach. You dont get to be Moyes number two without being pretty good IMO.

Quite possibly.

Just don't see the guy as a manager.

Don't see someone who inspire footballers to perform.

[alanharper]

Irvine is a number two (in more ways than one!). He's got a good rep in the game as a coach, but hasn't really cut it as a manager.

How many established number twos actually go on to make a successful management career for themselves? Excluding the "Anfield boot room" of the 70s and 80s, not many that I can think of. There are plenty of people who made their name as a good number two who never became a success when they got the chance to be a manager, people like Brian Kidd, Sammy Lee, Ray Wilkins, Kevin Blackwell, and it looks like Irvine can be added to that list.

[The Batman]

He's only been managing about 3 years so time will tell whether or not he become as good a manager as he is a coach.

[scram]

Never been convinced about so called top coaches,Is it a coincidence that they generally earn the tag while working under excellent managers?

Bingo!

When was the last time you heard someone described as "not well thought of in the game?"

Just seems a generic term describing a bunch of generic coaches.

These are all guys who have gone through the system, got those coaching badges etc.

When was the last time that anyone heard a manager say "Well. . he deserved to get the sack"?

Doesn't happen, does it?!

There are lots of good managers out there, but there is also a hell of a lot of mediocrity.

The best manages, for me personally, are those who can motivate the players on a personal level.

Leave the coaching, to the erm coaches, getting on with motivating, inspiring, and so forth.

It's extremly difficult to quantify what "an excellent" coach actually does - it does seem that the "best coaches" are those at successful clubs - and those clubs invariably go on being successful when the "excellent coach" moves on and AN Other takes their place - as an obvious example look how many "highly rated" coaches have been and gone at Man U over the last 20 years - and they're still at the top

But as you say - everybody in the game is "highly rated" in the game

A top manager is worth his weight in gold - a "top" coach is 10 a penny

For me the best coaches are the ones that actually do affect things - at development and youth level

I kinda like Harry Redknapps take on it - he's very scathing about coaching and believes it's a myth - hence why he always surrounds himself with mates at clubs - and invariably not "highly rated" coaches

If Mr Irvine is a top coach it doesn't seem to be translating to our play does it - disjointed and individualistic - same errors being repeated and a feature of our game - no conhesion throught the team and departments - just look at what he said about the Pilkington goal and how it was identified as a threat - then look at how we responded to the threat - something isn't adding up

[BRADDAZ]

He's only been managing about 3 years so time will tell whether or not he become as good a manager as he is a coach.

Only being managing three years. But he's a well regarded coach in the game.

Surely he's ideal for SWFC?

What a rumbleing abysmal decision to hire the guy. This job was and is WAY too big for a man with so little experience.

[Guest totemowl]

Irvine is a number two (in more ways than one!). He's got a good rep in the game as a coach, but hasn't really cut it as a manager.

How many established number twos actually go on to make a successful management career for themselves? Excluding the "Anfield boot room" of the 70s and 80s, not many that I can think of. There are plenty of people who made their name as a good number two who never became a success when they got the chance to be a manager, people like Brian Kidd, Sammy Lee, Ray Wilkins, Kevin Blackwell, and it looks like Irvine can be added to that list.

Kevin Blackwell !!!!!!!

I'd add Steve McLaren to that list, coach to Man United's 1999 treble winning side.

But don't mention Mourinho or Paisley, coaches to Robson (Bobby) and Shankly respectively.

Edited January 4, 2011 by totemowl

[ReadingOwl]

When was the last time you heard someone described as "not well thought of in the game?"

Graham Rix, at Southwark Crown Court.

[Guest totemowl]

Only being managing three years. But he's a well regarded coach in the game.

Surely he's ideal for SWFC?

What a rumbleing abysmal decision to hire the guy. This job was and is WAY too big for a man with so little experience.

Now that was definitely said of Paisley, who became the most succesful manager in Liverpool's existence.

[Guest starrydave]

Irvine is a number two (in more ways than one!). He's got a good rep in the game as a coach, but hasn't really cut it as a manager.

How many established number twos actually go on to make a successful management career for themselves? Excluding the "Anfield boot room" of the 70s and 80s, not many that I can think of. There are plenty of people who made their name as a good number two who never became a success when they got the chance to be a manager, people like Brian Kidd, Sammy Lee, Ray Wilkins, Kevin Blackwell, and it looks like Irvine can be added to that list.

Sam Allardyce, Harry Redknapp, Arsene Wenger, Gus Poyet.

With some exceptions it is a legitimate entry into becoming a football manager - especially but not exclusively for future managers that did have a glistening playing career.

Difference is though all of the above spent only a few years as AM where as AI has been coaching for bloody years.

[The Batman]

Sam Allardyce, Harry Redknapp, Arsene Wenger, Gus Poyet.

With some exceptions it is a legitimate entry into becoming a football manager - especially but not exclusively for future managers that did have a glistening playing career.

Difference is though all of the above spent only a few years as AM where as AI has been coaching for bloody years.

How long was he AM?

I know he was Academy Director at both Newcastle & Blackburn.

EDIT: I Googled it, 5 years between 2002 & 2007.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Just_Donny

[Guest Distraught!]

Now that was definitely said of Paisley, who became the most succesful manager in Liverpool's existence.

But the status and the infrastructure at Liverpool during the early to mid eighties made it relatively easy for somebody to step in and be successful. Would somebody like Paisley or Roy Evans be able to step in at Wednesday and turn the club around? Doubtful in my mind.