Guest Grandad Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I'm sorry Joe but that's a truly awful article It offers zero clarity and answers absolutely no questions. When stuff like this happens it really would be best to interview someone senior at the club rather than a 'rent-a-quote' football finance guy Our fans are justifiably terrified whenever off the field stories like this surface - and they would be much more likely to subscribe to The Star if you guys did some investigative journalism and got some real answers. Sorry if that comes over as a bit brutal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grandad Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, Grandad said: I'm sorry Joe but that's a truly awful article It offers zero clarity and answers absolutely no questions. When stuff like this happens it really would be best to interview someone senior at the club rather than a 'rent-a-quote' football finance guy Our fans are justifiably terrified whenever off the field stories like this surface - and they would be much more likely to subscribe to The Star if you guys did some investigative journalism and got some real answers. Sorry if that comes over as a bit brutal How much have we borrowed? Is all of it going to the club? In one go or in installments? Because it's been borrowed by Sheffield 3 Ltd can they just make this year's payment for the stadium (less £3m rent) and use the rest in other business interests (Answer to that is yes). Why borrow instead of self finance? Why are our accounts now over 5 months late? Why did we miss the extended Covid-19 deadline? When will the accounts be submitted? Are we in a soft embargo? Will we breach FFP again? When is the appeal against the points deduction? All questions that nobody knows the answer to and all entirely relevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellbeaten-the-owl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Grandad said: How much have we borrowed? Is all of it going to the club? In one go or in installments? Because it's been borrowed by Sheffield 3 Ltd can they just make this year's payment for the stadium (less £3m rent) and use the rest in other business interests (Answer to that is yes). Why borrow instead of self finance? Why are our accounts now over 5 months late? Why did we miss the extended Covid-19 deadline? When will the accounts be submitted? Are we in a soft embargo? Will we breach FFP again? When is the appeal against the points deduction? All questions that nobody knows the answer to and all entirely relevant Surely the accounts issue (not yet filed) is obvious with the stadium sale timing dispute and appeal? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grandad Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said: Surely the accounts issue (not yet filed) is obvious with the stadium sale timing dispute and appeal? No it isn't. That's just another owlstalk myth that's developed into fact as it's been repeated over and over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellbeaten-the-owl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Grandad said: No it isn't. That's just another owlstalk myth that's developed into fact as it's been repeated over and over No way will accounts be published until after the appeal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akbuk Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 9 hours ago, helmut_rooster said: Considering he sold it to himself, doesn't that mean the debt stays with him? He will have used it as surety again at a loan which normal business practice,we do it when we take mortgage out to buy a home .? we all need to understand that he is bank rolling the club that has little revenue coming in ,some clubs will go bust we won't 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StudentOwl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Grandad said: No it isn't. That's just another owlstalk myth that's developed into fact as it's been repeated over and over Must admit, I agree with you on this one. When our accounts are published, we've said every single season that just because losses are, say hypothetically, £14m, that isn't the figure that the EFL uses and says "they spent £1m more than the should have based off of the three-year FFP average". Because we know that some of those losses are not taken into account in the calculation... stadium maintenance, academy expenditure etc... So why would it hypothetically be that we're waiting on a sporting appeal before submitting fiscal accounts when we know the EFL don't actually follow them as a matter of scripture? As I understand it (bearing in mind my financial knowledge extends about as far as throwing a grand or two around at stocks and paying the rent for my flat on time) our accounts are a matter of appeasing the taxman, ultimately a completely separate and higher authority than a sporting executive in the EFL. Why the faaaack would they be cool with us waiting on submitting something that's a legal obligation? Edited October 7, 2020 by StudentOwl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellbeaten-the-owl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, StudentOwl said: Must admit, I agree with you on this one. When our accounts are published, we've said every single season that just because losses are, say hypothetically, £14m, that isn't the figure that the EFL uses and says "they spent £1m more than the should have based off of the three-year FFP average". Because we know that some of those losses are not taken into account in the calculation... stadium maintenance, academy expenditure etc... So why would it hypothetically be that we're waiting on a sporting appeal before submitting fiscal accounts when we know the EFL don't actually follow them as a matter of scripture? As I understand it (bearing in mind my financial knowledge extends about as far as throwing a grand or two around at stocks and paying the rent for my flat on time) our accounts are a matter of appeasing the taxman, ultimately a completely separate and higher authority than a sporting executive in the EFL. Why the faaaack would they be cool with us waiting on submitting something that's a legal obligation? It's because the whole case resolves around an accounting issue and whether it was correct (under frs102 and UK law) to include the sale in the 2018 accounts. This has massive consequences for the 2018 & subsequent 2019 set of accounts. It's also the exact same reason why derby county's June 2019 accounts are still not filed, as the EFL are still contesting their accounting treatment of player amortization (yes derby won the case but EFL appealing this part so still not concluded) Edited October 7, 2020 by wellbeaten-the-owl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 55 minutes ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said: Don't remember such a fuss when a similar charge was put in place in 2018 with close brothers (a client of new capital finance). This charge was satisfied a month later, that was against the club assets but back then the club assets included the ground. There was a fuss, iirc it was to do with work at the training ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 50 minutes ago, Grandad said: I'm sorry Joe but that's a truly awful article It offers zero clarity and answers absolutely no questions. When stuff like this happens it really would be best to interview someone senior at the club rather than a 'rent-a-quote' football finance guy Our fans are justifiably terrified whenever off the field stories like this surface - and they would be much more likely to subscribe to The Star if you guys did some investigative journalism and got some real answers. Sorry if that comes over as a bit brutal I mentioned this at post 3 but @owlstalk loves an "expert" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellbeaten-the-owl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, mkowl said: There was a fuss, iirc it was to do with work at the training ground Still don't think this is anything to worry about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 43 minutes ago, Grandad said: How much have we borrowed? Is all of it going to the club? In one go or in installments? Because it's been borrowed by Sheffield 3 Ltd can they just make this year's payment for the stadium (less £3m rent) and use the rest in other business interests (Answer to that is yes). Why borrow instead of self finance? Why are our accounts now over 5 months late? Why did we miss the extended Covid-19 deadline? When will the accounts be submitted? Are we in a soft embargo? Will we breach FFP again? When is the appeal against the points deduction? All questions that nobody knows the answer to and all entirely relevant Well he could have borrowed 60m, cleared the debt between Sheffield 3 and SWFC in full, then used that to repay the bulk of his shareholder loan to SWFC Don't think that would be the case but that would be fun to see the meltdown Of course what none of us know is how that original funding to the Club was financed or there may be calls on cash from the other businesses. Who knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 minute ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said: Still don't think this is anything to worry about I probably concur, subject to seeing the charge documents. They may not actually specify the sums involved anyway. And yes it is fairly common practice to sweat assets - but generally wealthy people will do that on a speculate to accumulate basis. Here it is to fund losses from day to day activities. That is always a warning flag of sorts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 35 minutes ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said: No way will accounts be published until after the appeal. Let's hope Companies House don't seek to strike the company off in the meantime. They will give extra time - perhaps 6 weeks - but they won't care about the reasons for the delay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellbeaten-the-owl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, mkowl said: I probably concur, subject to seeing the charge documents. They may not actually specify the sums involved anyway. And yes it is fairly common practice to sweat assets - but generally wealthy people will do that on a speculate to accumulate basis. Here it is to fund losses from day to day activities. That is always a warning flag of sorts Problem is nothing is normal where football and business is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3mps Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Well that's cleared it up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleo Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I’ve defended DC previously, believing his heart was in the right place and I don’t pretend to know what’s going on, but I’m worried. If, in effect, he’s borrowed money, using Hillsborough as security, then decides to cut his losses and do a “ moonlight”, then surely the club would be at the mercy of the lender - whoever that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellbeaten-the-owl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, mkowl said: Let's hope Companies House don't seek to strike the company off in the meantime. They will give extra time - perhaps 6 weeks - but they won't care about the reasons for the delay Not even reached the 3-6 month late filing penalty yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grandad Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I don't think many would argue that the Chairman's heart isn't in the right place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said: It's because the whole case resolves around an accounting issue and whether it was correct (under frs102 and UK law) to include the sale in the 2018 accounts. This has massive consequences for the 2018 & subsequent 2019 set of accounts. It's also the exact same reason why derby county's June 2019 accounts are still not filed, as the EFL are still contesting their accounting treatment of player amortization (yes derby won the case but EFL appealing this part so still not concluded) Clearly there is this major technical issue to overcome - but as StudentOwl says that does not prevent the normal filing obligations being required. And it is always possible to re-state accounts after the event However its fair to say I am glad its not me on the coal face trying to sort this out. All I know is me / client tried to play the system a few years back and suddenly he got County Court letters about prosecution of him as the director. Changed my perception Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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