Stadium Capacity discussion; is a 40k stadium too big?

[asteener1867]

1 minute ago, bluemagic said:

How is it? The only one posting bo ll ocks replies is you with nothing to back up what you say.

History doesn't lie, we had very good side in the past which nearly won Division One in the 60's and we didn't get over 30k avg. At a time all the other big clubs were getting 40k+ avg. That wasn't the 80's when hooliganism affected attendance. 

If history doesn';t lie...We should get the 42'000 average we got in the 50's shouldn't we?

[bluemagic]

6 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

If history doesn';t lie...We should get the 42'000 average we got in the 50's shouldn't we?

Nope, because in the 50's every club got more attendance because there wasn't any other entertainment like shopping and many fans would alternate between watching Wednesday and United home games because people couldnt afford to go to away matches.

Edited March 20, 2017 by bluemagic

[hypnosisman]

4 hours ago, bluemagic said:

 

 

We finished runners-up in Division 1 in 1961 and only averaged 30k, whereas Everton averaged over 40k. History doesn't support the idea we will average 40k with a good team, because we had two in 1961 and in 1992 and we didn't average over 30k.

 

 in 1961 Hillsborough was being redeveloped.  Hillsborough wasn't great for standing supporters, which could have lowered standing attendances in poor winter weather..  As for 1992, only three clubs got higher attendances, Liverpool, Arsenal and Man Utd.  http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/archive/eng/aveeng1992.htm

[the monk]

18 hours ago, bluemagic said:

Historically Sunderland and Everton have always got more than us. For example in 1961 when we finished 2nd in Division One we got 30k, and Everton got 43k, and in 1965 when Sunderland only finished 15th in Division 1 they got over 40k avg. London is a growing city and far more people to attract in. 

 

I think it boils down to us sharing a 500k city, split roughly 50/50, not many surrounding towns to draw from, and when you have 250k people, you normally hover around 20-30k avg, which we historically always have done.

Wasn't the north being built that year leaving three sides ? 

 

What we're their averages in 91/92?

[hypnosisman]

1 minute ago, the monk said:

Wasn't the north being built that year leaving three sides ? 

 

What we're their averages in 91/92?

 

Yes, the North was being built, which probably confused a lot of supporters.  In 1991 only three clubs got bigger crowds than Wednesday  http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/archive/eng/aveeng1961.htm  Crowds would have been bigger if we hadn't had the disaster hanging over us.

[almy20]

Just now, steveger said:

A new shiny 40,000 stadium is just reyt

You really will make Mr Chansiri's eyes water with the potential cost of that

 

1 minute ago, steveger said:

A new shiny 40,000 stadium is just reyt

[asteener1867]

5 minutes ago, bluemagic said:

Nope, because in the 50's every club got more attendance because there wasn't any other entertainment like shopping and many fans would alternate between watching Wednesday and United home games because people couldnt afford to go to away matches.

And..these days every Prem club is virtually averaging more than they ever have...What makes you think we would buck the trend?

[bluemagic]

Just now, asteener1867 said:

And..these days every Prem club is virtually averaging more than they ever have...What makes you think we would buck the trend?

Competition from Manchester and Liverpool for all the glory supporters and that we won't get many glory supporters because highly unlikely we ever get a top 6 side again due to money. Just don't think Sheffield is big enough to support 40k avg attendance, 500k / 2. Hope I'm proved wrong. 

 

Fair point the other guy made about Stadium redevelopment in the 60's, hadn't thought of that. May have held our avg down to 30k, wasn't alive then to know.

[asteener1867]

2 minutes ago, bluemagic said:

Competition from Manchester and Liverpool for all the glory supporters and that we won't get many glory supporters because highly unlikely we ever get a top 6 side again due to money. Just don't think Sheffield is big enough to support 40k avg attendance, 500k / 2. Hope I'm proved wrong. 

 

Fair point the other guy made about Stadium redevelopment in the 60's, hadn't thought of that. May have held our avg down to 30k, wasn't alive then to know.

How do you explain Southampton, Norwich, Stoke etc virtually doubling their attendances then...Is it only historical in South Yorks or summat?

[bluemagic]

Just now, asteener1867 said:

How do you explain Southampton, Norwich, Stoke etc virtually doubling their attendances then...Is it only historical in South Yorks or summat?

Southampton had a tiny Stadium which only held 20k or so and moved to a new one, Norwich maybe the same thing but don't know much about them, Stoke used to get 25-30k when in Division One in the 60's, but obviously not when in the third.

 

Additionally, Southampton and Norwich are in areas with no competition from other clubs. Our problem is Manchester, Leeds and at stretch Liverpool are quick car/train journeys.

[asteener1867]

5 minutes ago, bluemagic said:

Southampton had a tiny Stadium which only held 20k or so and moved to a new one, Norwich maybe the same thing but don't know much about them, Stoke used to get 25-30k when in Division One in the 60's, but obviously not when in the third.

 

Additionally, Southampton and Norwich are in areas with no competition from other clubs. Our problem is Manchester, Leeds and at stretch Liverpool are quick car/train journeys.

Southampton averaged 14 or 15 K in a stadium that held 20K..They now get 30K....It was sod all to do with capacity....

Blackburn Rovers DOUBLED their attendances in the Prem...Are they not a little nearer to Manchester and Liverpool?

[bluemagic]

23 minutes ago, hypnosisman said:

 In 1991 only three clubs got bigger crowds than Wednesday  http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/archive/eng/aveeng1961.htm  

Think that came down to the prawn cocktail glory supporter brigade. They simple didn't dare go to Liverpool and Manchester or Leeds due to the serious hooligan element at those clubs, likewise Chelsea, Spurs and West Ham all had serious problems. So they only got the local hardcore fans like Wednesday did. Question is, can we attract those glory supporters if we made to the Premier, I think it would be difficult as they can go to Man Utd or City fairly easy, and we probably will never be spending 100-200 million a season on players.

Edited March 20, 2017 by bluemagic

[bluemagic]

8 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

Southampton averaged 14 or 15 K in a stadium that held 20K..They now get 30K....It was sod all to do with capacity....

Blackburn Rovers DOUBLED their attendances in the Prem...Are they not a little nearer to Manchester and Liverpool?

Blackburn and Burnley have always seemed to buck the trend and get very high attendance for the size of town, 100k towns.

Hard to explain it really, that Blackburn was getting as many fans in Prem as we were with a 500k city.

Edited March 20, 2017 by bluemagic

[Patient zero]

In a similar vein, Liverpool fans are hoping the club will redevelop the Anfield Road end of the ground to bring the capacity up to around 60,000, from a supporter point of view it's a no-brainer for what is still one of Europe's biggest and most successful clubs, played in the top flight for over 50 years, have consistently filled their ground to capacity for pretty much every game and have a waiting list for tickets, so guess they wouldn't struggle to fill a bigger stadium every week. Yet the owner umm and arr about whether to redevelop that stand, although they may well decide to go ahead at some point.

 

If Wednesday did rebuild the LLE to increase capacity to (Well some say a ground capacity of 50,000 is needed) if £12,000 per seat is close to being accurate, seats which might be used 4 or 5 times a season in the PL and a couple of times a decade outside it, in a stadium Wednesday have never come remotely close to filling on a regular basis in living memory,  well I'd be interested to see the business case for it. 

 

From RAWK...

 

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Anfield Road Redevelopment

« on: October 12, 2016, 09:09:55 AM »

 

Anfield Road Thread was locked so happy to merge

Liverpool chief executive Ian Ayre reveals Anfield Road redevelopment cost - says club are open to supporter investment
08:28, 12 OCT 2016 UPDATED 08:28, 12 OCT 2016
BY ANDY KELLY

Ayre says FSG looking for a solution to funding the revelopment of Anfield Road end

Liverpool chief executive Ian Ayre has put a cost of £60m - £70m on the club redeveloping the Anfield Road end of the ground to bring capacity towards 60,000..

But the Reds supremo described a possible 15 year repayments required to finance the extra 6,000 seats as “not a smart investment for the business.”

Ayre said the club needed to find “a rounded solution” but left open the possibility of supporters investing in a proposal to extend the ground.

The Anfield Road has become an issue for supporters following the successful launch of the extended Main Stand earlier this season which has taken Anfield’s capacity to 54,074.

Outline planning permission to extend the Anfield Road is already in place but Ayre told a meeting of the Liverpool Supporters’ Committee that the Anfield Road brought more challenges financially.

Ayre, who will leave Anfield at the end of this season, said: “ A stand behind a goal doesn’t have the benefit of hospitality that would go a long way to meet the redevelopment costs.

“If you consider the redevelopment of Anfield Road from a purely General Admission perspective, building, say, 6,000 extra seats to take the capacity up to 60,000 would cost somewhere between £60m and £70m.

“At £12,000 to £13,000 per seat, it would take approximately 15 years to pay back, which is not a smart investment for the business. Therefore the Club needs to find a rounded solution that’s in the best interests of the football club.”

That £12,000 per seat equates to the current cost of season tickets at roughly around £800.

In the minutes of the meeting which was held after the opening of the Main Stand, Ayre added that “the Club’s objective was always to build and open the main stand. From the outset, the Club did not want to set deadlines or promises it failed to keep.”

He suggested that LFC now needs a period of time “to ensure that what it has put in place works, and in tandem continue with plans for Anfield Road”.

“However, as with the Main Stand, the Club has to find the right economic model, and only then will it be the right time to move forward,” he added.

The prospect of supporter involvement was raised by Graham Smith, a representative for Merseyside based supporters on the committee.

Mr Smith said: “There are people who would think a 15-year return would make sense, and that’s the supporters. The supporters would fund such a development upfront if the Club made an appeal for financial support.”

He added that he was of the view with the right relationship with investors, the £60m, or whatever the figure needed was, could be raised.

In response, Ayre said while he that was not in a position to speak for the owners or their plans, it was an interesting proposition and one worth looking at.

“We should have that conversation,” he added.

Liverpool owner John Henry made headlines late last month after appearing to suggest that fans’ desire for affordable tickets was “an issue” for the further redevelopment of Anfield.

Speaking to AP in New York, he said; “I don’t know if there is a next step because ticket prices are an issue in England. That may foreclose further expansion. We’ll have to see.”

That was taken by some supporters as a reference to the supporter protest of February this year when a 10,000 plus walk out of fans during the Sunderland game led to a change of heart by the ownership over some higher prices linked to the new Main Stand.

The extra 8,500 seats in the expanded Main Stand include roughly half as hospitality, which is worth more in financial terms to the club.

It is expected that the £120m interest free loan provided by FSG to pay for the work can be repaid with five to six years.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-chief-executive-ian-ayre-12011511?

 

 

 

 

 

[bluemagic]

21 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

Southampton averaged 14 or 15 K in a stadium that held 20K..They now get 30K....It was sod all to do with capacity....

 

Had everything to do with the capacity.

 

From wiki:

 

"an all-seater stadium in the early 1990s in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster on 15 April 1989, which obliged all clubs in the top two English divisions had all-seater stadiums. New stands were erected at both ends of the stadium, but by the 1993–94 season the stadium now had a capacity of just over 15,000, the smallest in the top level of English football. The Milton Road Stand was notable for its wedge-like appearance."

 

Before being forced to do that were getting 20-25k, which was probably all the Dell held.

Edited March 20, 2017 by bluemagic

[asteener1867]

1 minute ago, bluemagic said:

Blackburn and Burnley have always seemed to buck the trend and get very high attendance for the size of town, 100k towns.

Hard to explain it really, that Blackburn was getting as many fans in Prem as we were with a 500k city.

The explanation is..Football is different today than it once was.....The Premiership is laden with money and wall to wall coverage....It takes less time to travel further than it ever did..AND a succesful football team will attract higher crowds than they ever have..Allied to the fact, that like it or lump it...Staying in the top division is akin now, to winning a sodding cup or summatt......

You seem to find it "Hard to explain"...I find it f.ookin' simple evolution .

Why would the Wolves game sell out...(bar the ridiculous inhibitions set by SAG)..Why would we get more folk in playing Burton Albion in a night game..Then we have done in the past when playing f.ooking Chelsea in the first division..IF football isn't changing...I honestly don't follow your argument mate.

Why with what really is a modicum amout of success get 40'000 in against sodding Wycombe Wanderers (No disrespect)...How in the name of f.ookwhittery can we take more to Cardiff and Wembley in recent times, than some would allow in the HOME ground...Its patent bloody nonsense

[S36 OWL]

1 hour ago, briggowl said:

I think DC's marketing strategy is exceptional. Prices so high that Season tickets look like a steal in comparison (I mean they're not but its genious), while away fans stay away, not even Leeds sold out this season.

 

Current strategy, make ST's look so popular that those who haven't got are worried about having the option taken away and hence a big waiting list (genious)

 

I wouldn't bet against DC having something to do with the current capacity enforcement of about 29,000 home fans, making it look and feel like our best option for guaranteed footbal next season is a season ticket. Once again it's pretty clever stuff.

 

Think if we can get rid of over 20,000 ST's in the champ (I dont know what we'll get for next season), we could well need a 40k stadium. We dropped out of the prem just before crowds soared so I would imagine we'd beat our previous high prem average attendance by a long way.

 

If this was the case , it would also be a very clever way of getting fans on board about a move to a new stadium. the fans get frustrated by the moronic antic of SAG and SY Plod so we back o move away from Hillsbro .

[asteener1867]

4 minutes ago, bluemagic said:

Had everything to do with the capacity.

 

From wiki:

 

"an all-seater stadium in the early 1990s in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster on 15 April 1989, which obliged all clubs in the top two English divisions had all-seater stadiums. New stands were erected at both ends of the stadium, but by the 1993–94 season the stadium now had a capacity of just over 15,000, the smallest in the top level of English football. The Milton Road Stand was notable for its wedge-like appearance."

 

Before being forced to do that were getting 20-25k, which was probably all the Dell held.

They averaged under 15000 several times while in the top league from 1985 to 95 mate....its all here..

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/soto.htm

[asteener1867]

8 minutes ago, bluemagic said:

Had everything to do with the capacity.

 

From wiki:

 

"an all-seater stadium in the early 1990s in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster on 15 April 1989, which obliged all clubs in the top two English divisions had all-seater stadiums. New stands were erected at both ends of the stadium, but by the 1993–94 season the stadium now had a capacity of just over 15,000, the smallest in the top level of English football. The Milton Road Stand was notable for its wedge-like appearance."

 

Before being forced to do that were getting 20-25k, which was probably all the Dell held.

!986/87/88..in the top division..They averaged UNDER 15000

[bluemagic]

8 minutes ago, asteener1867 said:

They averaged under 15000 several times while in the top league from 1985 to 95 mate....its all here..

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/soto.htm

Good point, I hope you are right anyhow. Would love us to get 40k avg. Not 100% certain I am correct in what I have been saying, in splits minds on it. Difficult one to predict, because as you say being in the Premier is maybe is like winning a cup. I guess time will time. I think I'll probably go round in circles if I discuss it further, so I agree to disagree :)

Edited March 20, 2017 by bluemagic
typo: meant to put 'are right' instead 'not right'