rawowl Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 4 points off 2nd place. Game on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Distraught! Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 4 points off 2nd place. Game on. And by the time we play our next league game, that being Charlton which in itself is no guarantee of points in the bag, especially given our form against the other expected front runners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ak15 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 But it was more complicated than that wasn't it? Starting towards the end of 2008/9 that same squad (with few changes) was relentlessly consistently average, even into October of the next season... then something changed. But if the situation was so inevitably irretrievable how did we give the runaway league leaders such a tough game and then see Irvine win 5 of his first 7 games before the lousy form returned? Wednesday started that season by picking up generally average results, then we had a bad run, which all clubs do from time to time but our squad was so mediocre and the players weren't good enough/commited enough to stand up and be counted and to fully arrest that slide. As for you're specific examples, pretty much everyone raised their game against Newcastle that season, didn't they? Also, Irvine's impact as new manager in the first few weeks did luckily coincide with several winable fixtures. Can you honestly say that our squad was too good to go down last season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Wednesday started that season by picking up generally average results, then we had a bad run, which all clubs do from time to time but our squad was so mediocre and the players weren't good enough/commited enough to stand up and be counted and to fully arrest that slide. As for you're specific examples, pretty much everyone raised their game against Newcastle that season, didn't they? Also, Irvine's impact as new manager in the first few weeks did luckily coincide with several winable fixtures. Can you honestly say that our squad was too good to go down last season? That is right out of the textbook of reaching a conclusion and then looking for the evidence to support it, rather than the generally more reliable method of doing it the other way round. You can't escape the facts of our results for the two calendar years prior to October 2009 (I remember doing a statistical analysis of average points per 5 games and it was remarkably consistent, as was our league position) with pretty much the same squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlsfaninNorway Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Does everyone reckon that these 6 new signings are all down to Irvine? Nope, and someone said that he had said at least 6. If we sign 6 good players then we will have 9 good players, I think: 6+Mellor, Morrison, Weaver and maybe Buxton. And hopefully players like Beevers, Miller, Coke and Spurr can play better with quality playing alongside with them. If they don't then we need more than 6. PS. I am unsure if JJ can develop into a complete quality player. Dribbling seems to be the only thing he is consistently good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlsfaninNorway Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) All the above applies to the Irvine style of play. Some could well look much better under different management. Edited January 6, 2011 by OwlsfaninNorway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ak15 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 That is right out of the textbook of reaching a conclusion and then looking for the evidence to support it, rather than the generally more reliable method of doing it the other way round. You can't escape the facts of our results for the two calendar years prior to October 2009 (I remember doing a statistical analysis of average points per 5 games and it was remarkably consistent, as was our league position) with pretty much the same squad. Laws did a very professional job of keeping us in the division for the previous couple of seasons once our best players were sold off in 2007, which says it all. Was our squad too good to go down in 2009-10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Was our squad too good to go down in 2009-10? Was it inevitable that it would go down? In October 2009, that suggestion would have been utterly ridiculed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beholder Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 To be fair to Irvine we have lost our two best performing players to injury in Buxton and Coke. I don't think Irvine would have considered JOC or Potter together if Coke had been fit. Our midfield is very poor without Coke in there. Our defense is poor without Buxton....(and don't forget Irvine did inherit a defense that had recently lost Richard Wood who was a million times better than Purse..) If we had kept Coke and Buxton fit, we would be higher in he table. If we hadn't lost Wood, we would probably have stayed up last season. ......................... Those are all the mitigating cicumstances I can think of. There are plenty of examples of Irvine persisting with failed methods when he had scope to change things but refused to use them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Distraught! Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Was it inevitable that it would go down? In October 2009, that suggestion would have been utterly ridiculed. Likewise, those did those jokers that started to talk about a play-off push after Irvine's 5 in 7 believe that relegation was a certainty at that point? I bet they now talk about it as an irretrievable situation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18owlsforeva67 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 And the thing is, the players who I don't think are good enough for SWFC were here when he arrived and weren't out of contract in the Summer. So they were definitely going to be a part of his squad this season regardless (because nobody is stupid enough to take them off our hands). Then he had a set budget to play with in order to fill out the rest of the squad. Let's say for argument's sake our two weakest areas are defence and centre midfield, players weren't out of contract in those positions so he couldn't move them on and had to spend his budget on other areas of the squad. If he addresses those areas this month I'll be willing to stop saying "Irvine out!" at every opportunity (although I won't be saying "Irvine in") and instead I'll just sit back, try to relax, cheer on the team and see what happens. Spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I don't think Irvine would have considered JOC or Potter together if Coke had been fit. Coke has had to play wide left while those two were in the middle three times this season. And this was not because of a shortage of wingers as on each occasion at least one of Teale, Sedgwick or Jones has been on the bench, including the infamous game against Bournemouth when we had four central midfielders starting. Also, on five occasions substitutions have created a similar scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlsfaninNorway Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Absolute, utter tosh! We won five out of the first seven games that Irvine was in charge. And then you say there was no chance of scraping together another two or three wins during the course of the season to keep us up? Yes, exactly. And we were in with a chance of staying up right up to the last game we drew 2-2 at home Crystal Palace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beholder Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Coke has had to play wide left while those two were in the middle three times this season. And this was not because of a shortage of wingers as on each occasion at least one of Teale, Sedgwick or Jones has been on the bench, including the infamous game against Bournemouth when we had four central midfielders starting. Also, on five occasions substitutions have created a similar scenario. Yes...to be honest I'm trying to play devils advocate. The kind of choices that you have outlined worry me aswell. More recently though, he has had his choice restricted due to injury... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OwlsfaninNorway Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) double post Edited January 6, 2011 by OwlsfaninNorway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ak15 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Was it inevitable that it would go down? In October 2009, that suggestion would have been utterly ridiculed. The same month that we were thrashed by 3-0 by Derby County and 4-1 by Watford? To be honest, after watching those two matches I was worried. Of course nothing is inevitable in football but the Championship is a tight division so we did have a fair shout at staying up but once Wednesday did get sucked into relegation battle, the players didn't have the fight to overcome the threat of relegation and pull themselves out of it with either Laws, McAuley or Irvine in charge. If the club continued to be run in the same way, I can't help but feel that, even if we had stayed up last season (regardless of who was the manager was), we would have just continued to sign players other clubs wanted shut of and the cycle would just probably have continued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 The same month that we were thrashed by 3-0 by Derby County and 4-1 by Watford? To be honest, after watching those two matches I was worried. But that's the point isn't it? Before that I bet there would be just about no one expecting what unfolded. But just a few weeks later we looked like a doomed team and continued to do so for the rest of the season (with the exception of the brief spell after Laws had been sacked). The question is, what caused this because I don't believe it was just a simple case of players not being good enough. They had been for two years before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Saturday Owl Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I'll give him another chance after we've brought in the 6, he's here until the end of the season whether we like it or not so we may as well show our support. That means not throwing the dummy out of the pram every time we lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ak15 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 But that's the point isn't it? Before that I bet there would be just about no one expecting what unfolded. But just a few weeks later we looked like a doomed team and continued to do so for the rest of the season (with the exception of the brief spell after Laws had been sacked). The question is, what caused this because I don't believe it was just a simple case of players not being good enough. They had been for two years before that. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Three clubs go down every season, that doesn't change and we have been involved in several relegation battles over the last 10 years or so and we've never looked likely to return to the Premiership, 09-10 was just one of those seasons where years of boardroom mismanagement caught up with us on the field. Sometimes the most simple explaination is the most logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMortimer Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Three clubs go down every season, that doesn't change and we have been involved in several relegation battles over the last 10 years or so and we've never looked likely to return to the Premiership, 09-10 was just one of those seasons where years of boardroom mismanagement caught up with us on the field. Sometimes the most simple explaination is the most logical. So the most logical explanation for a precipitous change to two years of relentlessly consistent results is the players suddenly and irretrievably becoming crap? And in the middle of this crapness there was a peak of excellent results that stood out just as starkly. Just in case you needed any further persuasion or wished to glibly dismiss the case as nothing more than a silly conspiracy, the previous chairman has raised a number of pertinent issues that might have contributed to this malaise. As I said, it smacks of reaching a conclusion and then searching for the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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