Alan Irvine

[Guest becauseofboxingday]

That may be true, but the league table is the only place that matters and it is pragmatically telling us we are not much better off than we were four months ago.

We're a lot better off than we would have been if Irvine had got 18 points from his 21 games in charge.

[DJMortimer]

We're a lot better off than we would have been if Irvine had got 18 points from his 21 games in charge.

When Laws left we were in the relegation zone by 3 points.

We've narrowed that gap by two points in four months.

Awesome !

[Guest becauseofboxingday]

It's also interesting that Irvine inherited a team with 1 win in it's previous 12 games and so has largely been absolved of blame by some when it continues to struggle.

Yet Laws goes to Burnley who are on precisely the same run of form but many are convinced it's purely his fault that their slump has continued.

And they say referees are inconsistent.

You can quote statistics all you like but Brian Laws cannot effectively organise teams defensively.

We were always prone from set pieces, the gaps between midfield and defence were massive chasms and you could drive a bus between the full backs and the centre halves. This is something he never managed to address, Irvine has addressed this in four months. Some of the goals we conceded under Laws were laughable.

Hopefully when Irvine brings in his own players we will be more of a threat going forwards.

[DuncOwl]

When Laws left we were in the relegation zone by 3 points.

We've narrowed that gap by two points in four months.

Awesome !

Answer this honestly... not with stats, not with pragmacy, but with honesty (and in English)...

Do YOU think that we have a better chance with Irvine in charge or with Laws?

[DJMortimer]

You can quote statistics all you like but Brian Laws cannot effectively organise teams defensively.

We were always prone from set pieces, the gaps between midfield and defence were massive chasms and you could drive a bus between the full backs and the centre halves. This is something he never managed to address, Irvine has addressed this in four months. Some of the goals we conceded under Laws were laughable.

Last season we conceded 14 at home (best in the division as I recall). I appreciate that we were pretty bad on the road and were crap again this season, but it's still quite an achievement for such a hapless buffoon isn't it?

[Guest Stereophonics]

This season? 45 mins against Barnsley and the Scunny game. That's hardly competing - it's one and a half games out of the season.

Cardiff at home, Newcastle away, Preston at home.

We didn't beat newcastle or Preston but we had many chances to win the game. Under AI we are still loosing games by 1 goal but never look like threatening either. I'm not saying that we should have kept BL or that AI is a bad manager. Just that we are not in any better a position than when he took over.

I don't feel that the situation was mission impossible either when AI took over and he should have done a lot better. I do think that this squad is capable of better than we are seeing.

[DJMortimer]

Answer this honestly... not with stats, not with pragmacy, but with honesty (and in English)...

Do YOU think that we have a better chance with Irvine in charge or with Laws?

I couldn't answer with 'pragmacy' even if I wanted to. :wink:

The players had evidently quit on Laws and thus the chairman had no choice but to get rid of him. Had he not done so our position would have deteriorated more rapidly still. But that's hardly a robust defence for the position we now find ourselves in is it - it's slightly better than it might have been?

As I pointed out, we are 1 point adrift rather than the 3 it was when Laws was removed a mere 22 games ago. Not exactly a stunning renaissance is it?

[Guest Stereophonics]

I couldn't answer with 'pragmacy' even if I wanted to. :wink:

The players had evidently quit on Laws and thus the chairman had no choice but to get rid of him. Had he not done so our position would have deteriorated more rapidly still. But that's hardly a robust defence for the position we now find ourselves in is it - it's slightly better than it might have been?

As I pointed out, we are 1 point adrift rather than the 3 it was when Laws was removed a mere 22 games ago. Not exactly a stunning renaissance is it?

Good point.

[Guest becauseofboxingday]

When Laws left we were in the relegation zone by 3 points.

We've narrowed that gap by two points in four months.

Awesome !

A disappointingly poor analysis. We were 2 points behind Ipswich who were a further two points behind the team ahead of them. Ipswich were never going to continue to struggle with such an expensive squad.

We were 1 point ahead of Plymouth and 2 ahead of Peterboro, we are now 4 ahead and 14 ahead.

Of the other teams currently in the bottom half we have made a 3 point gain on Palace, a 1 point gain on Sflaphorpe, a 9 point gain on Watford, an 8 point gain on QPR, a 2 point gain on Coventry, a 2 point gain on Preston, a 7 point loss on Ipswich, a 1 point loss on Derby and maintained the status quo with Barnsley.

Therefore, out of the teams in the bottom half we have gained on 8 of them, remained the same with one and lost ground on two. He has achieved 26 points from 20 games.

Can I ask what exactly did you expect? He inherited a poor squad with no money to spend. What in your opinion would have been acceptable? I presume that you didn't expect promotional form of 2 points per game? Furthermore I presume that you didn't realistically expect play off form of 1.5 points per game? Therefore we can conclude that you would have reasonably expected less that 30 points from 20 games? Are you therefore miffed that he didn't achieve 27,28 or 29 points from 20 games?

What did you expect?

[Guest becauseofboxingday]

Last season we conceded 14 at home (best in the division as I recall). I appreciate that we were pretty bad on the road and were crap again this season, but it's still quite an achievement for such a hapless buffoon isn't it?

As I keep pointing out to you a season is over 46 games, not 23 or 13.

Where did our defence rank over 46 games? Only 7 were worse

Where did it rank over the 21 games he got this season? Only Peterboro and Sflaphorpe were worse.

[DJMortimer]

A disappointingly poor analysis. We were 2 points behind Ipswich who were a further two points behind the team ahead of them. Ipswich were never going to continue to struggle with such an expensive squad.

We were 1 point ahead of Plymouth and 2 ahead of Peterboro, we are now 4 ahead and 14 ahead.

Of the other teams currently in the bottom half we have made a 3 point gain on Palace, a 1 point gain on Sflaphorpe, a 9 point gain on Watford, an 8 point gain on QPR, a 2 point gain on Coventry, a 2 point gain on Preston, a 7 point loss on Ipswich, a 1 point loss on Derby and maintained the status quo with Barnsley.

Therefore, out of the teams in the bottom half we have gained on 8 of them, remained the same with one and lost ground on two. He has achieved 26 points from 20 games.

Can I ask what exactly did you expect? He inherited a poor squad with no money to spend. What in your opinion would have been acceptable? I presume that you didn't expect promotional form of 2 points per game? Furthermore I presume that you didn't realistically expect play off form of 1.5 points per game? Therefore we can conclude that you would have reasonably expected less that 30 points from 20 games? Are you therefore miffed that he didn't achieve 27,28 or 29 points from 20 games?

What did you expect?

Or to put it another way...

We were adrift by 3 points when Laws was sacked and we've clawed back 2 of them in the last 22 games?

Spin away.

[DJMortimer]

As I keep pointing out to you a season is over 46 games, not 23 or 13.

Where did our defence rank over 46 games? Only 7 were worse

I already accepted we had big problems. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

But for such a feckless moron as you're painting him, conceding fewer goals at home than anyone else in the division is one hell of an achievement isn't it?

[Guest becauseofboxingday]

I already accepted we had big problems. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

But for such a feckless moron as you're painting him, conceding fewer goals at home than anyone else in the division is one hell of an achievement isn't it?

Maybe he also had the best record at defending against teams in green, although this would have been another pointless point. As I keep saying and you keep swerving a season is over 46 games.

Another point you seem unable to answer is how many points from 20 games do you think would have been acceptable?

You will lose all credibility if you wanted play off form (30), he has got 26, how many would have been acceptable, 27?

[DJMortimer]

Maybe he also had the best record at defending against teams in green, although this would have been another pointless point. As I keep saying and you keep swerving a season is over 46 games.

Another point you seem unable to answer is how many points from 20 games do you think would have been acceptable?

You will lose all credibility if you wanted play off form (30), he has got 26, how many would have been acceptable, 27?

Your own analysis shows we have just barely outscored the points output of the likes of Sflaphorpe, Crystal Palace, Plymouth, Preston, Coventry, and Barnsley since Irvine arrived.

Is it without credibility to suggest that such a feat is hardly amazing?

Anyway, as you say, a season lasts 46 games, not 23 so judging him on such would be premature. Why not get 30 points in this 23 and he can compensate for it with 20 in the next 23? :wink:

Edited April 12, 2010 by DJMortimer

[Guest becauseofboxingday]

Your own analysis shows we have just barely outscored the points output of the likes of Sflaphorpe, Crystal Palace, Plymouth, Preston, Coventry, and Barnsley since Irvine arrived.

Is it without credibility to suggest that such a feat is hardly amazing?

Anyway, as you say, a season lasts 46 games, not 23 so judging him on such would be premature. Why not get 30 points in this 23 and he can compensate for it with 20 in the next 23? :wink:

Alan Irvine cannot control the point output of teams such as Sflaphorpe and Crystal Palace. All he can control is the point output of Sheffield Wednesday. He has achieved 26 points from 20 games and given the circumstances this is more than acceptable. Amazing? No, but amazing rarely happens in football and thus when it does happen it is remembered for many years. What Iain Dowie did at Crystal Palce was amazing, what Harry Redknapp did at Portsmouth was amazing, and should Reading make the play offs this season that will be amazing.

However, to expect LS to have made such an appointment is unreasonable. To expect AI to have achieved this is unreasonable. The difference with Palace, Portsmouth and Reading is that they had talented squads that were underperforming. The same cannot be said of Wednesday, underperforming, yes, talented no. He is providing a points ratio that is about the maximum this squad of players could be expected to achieve. How anybody can say that he has done a poor job is beyond me and it is this trigger happy attitude that has led to us having one manager per year since we were relegated. Only Laws and Turner were given the appropriate amount of time to improve things.

[dorian gray]

Your own analysis shows we have just barely outscored the points output of the likes of Sflaphorpe, Crystal Palace, Plymouth, Preston, Coventry, and Barnsley since Irvine arrived.

Is it without credibility to suggest that such a feat is hardly amazing?

Anyway, as you say, a season lasts 46 games, not 23 so judging him on such would be premature. Why not get 30 points in this 23 and he can compensate for it with 20 in the next 23? :wink:

for anyone to arrive and inherit this heap of shi...no, I'll put it another way....our players have not been blessed with the best (or anyway near the best) performances this year in the league, the total points gathered by it under irvine appear to have been better than under laws (especially the month or so before we were put out of our misery), so whilst irvine isn't going to cause anyone a heart attack with his attacking flair (we live in hope of that changing), the limitations of the playing staff is 95% down to laws. If irvine had 3 years to build a squad i would hope for better tactics and players from him, and if orville the duck was a manager he would look as enlightened as some have in the past on our touchline.

[Owlsfan]

Alan Irvine cannot control the point output of teams such as Sflaphorpe and Crystal Palace. All he can control is the point output of Sheffield Wednesday. He has achieved 26 points from 20 games and given the circumstances this is more than acceptable. Amazing? No, but amazing rarely happens in football and thus when it does happen it is remembered for many years. What Iain Dowie did at Crystal Palce was amazing, what Harry Redknapp did at Portsmouth was amazing, and should Reading make the play offs this season that will be amazing.

Agree with this. The fact that other teams who were close to the bottom with us have also improved shouldn't be used to put down what AI has done. Not magic, but more than this "2 points" better than Laws.

[Bluesteel]

We aren't a shitload better off. But the difference between relegation and midtable is very small. Especially over half a season. One or two wins into losses and Irvine's record is on a par with Laws. One or two more wins instead of losses and he looks like a genius. Anyone expecting a noticably big turnaround with the same squad in 6 months was deluded.

Good post,

weve been one or two mistakes/goals away from being relatively safe, but have instead fallen back into the bottom three with two dissapointing/unlucky results on the bounce (not helped by some players lack of effort).

Irvine does appear negative, but I get the impression that he sees this as the only way forwards with this current bunch of players as we usually found ourselves 2 down chasing a game rather than "in it for the duration" as he says. Its a fine line, weve often drawn too many but had we nicked a win at Coventry for example and held on for a point at Boro I dont think people would be questioning his tactics as much.

IF were still doing the same in 6 months time, then I think we should be asking questions. But at the moment I can see why hes going down the "keep it tight" route hoping to nick something and keep grinding along.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Bluesteel

[scram]

We've gotten a little bogged down in a stats war - which was inevitable really and i intimated as such to Glaser earlier - stats will be manipulated because they can be

The overview of the situation for me is that we were nowhere near relegated back in mid January, it certainly won't be a "miracle" if we do stay up - this group of players have kept the team in the division for 2 years so it's hardly beyond them to replicate

The balance of the squad (as opposed to the outright quality) isn't good and the depth of the squad is small - but this is far more attributable to a low budget than anything else

Mr Laws could undoubtedly have done better - virtually everybody can improve - as can the current manager.

Time will tell - as it always does - its interesting (or worrying) to note that Preston's reported player budget this season is almost double ours.

[Guest Theboylangers]

The trouble with Wednesday over the last few years is our transfer 'policy', which I know has been dictated somewhat by the sodding budget that we hear ad infinitum.

To build a decent championship team, players are recruited from Premiership sides (that are not getting a game or youngsters in the reserves), or they take a chance on lower league/foreign talent and then mix them with an established base of players.

A good example of this - West Brom signing Dorrans for about 150k , one of the bargains of the season. Obviously there are varying factors including the ability of a manager to spot decent talent . Jamie Ward at the pigs is another example of what can be picked up relatively cheaply. Back in 2004, Turner brought in the likes of Whelan, Brunt for next to nothing. What did we end up with last season ? Fecking Jimmy Smith.

Unfortunately, we seem to think that signing players that can't get in their respective Championship sides but have a lot of 'experience' ( or are cheap ) will be good enough :

Potter, Gray, Clarke - not good enough for Wolves in the Championship

Purse - couldn't get in Cardiff's side last season

Miller -Ipswich didn't want him

O'Connor - Burnley let him go

Grant - 3rd choice keeper for Derby

Buxton - couldn't get in Stoke's side

Varney - can't get in Derby's first 11 and even though they were struggling, didn't want him back.

I could go on, but that accounts for probably half our first names on the teamsheet. I'm not saying all of these all bad players but you can see a pattern emerging.

Until we start at least speculating, a bit like Turner did with decent youngsters, paying good money in wages (which we haven't got ) or getting in a manager who can spot talent, then I am afraid we are absolutely fecked.

The only bright spot is that a lot of them will be bailed in the summer thank God. The trouble is, I'm not sure I trust Irvine to rebuild. I'll take dour football in exchange for winning games and I know Irvine hands are tied somewhat, with the crap he was left behind.

However, that doesn't excuse resigning loan players that Laws brought in - couldn't he have shown more imagination than resigning Varney and the useless Soares?

Edited April 12, 2010 by Shaunnie