Alan Irvine

[ReadingOwl]

If you entered a Formula One campaign in a rusty Austin Princess, with a £2,000 budget for the season, and Maureen Rees as your designated driver, and didn't manage a single podium finish, would it entitle you to a moan about how your team had underperformed?

Not strictly analogous though is it? And if those are our collective thoughts, then why did we appoint any manager anyway?

Are you saying that whomever took over it was beyond hope, even with hindsight?

I don't think it was. I still don't think it is providing we go into the next few games 'up and at em' or 'poo poo or bust'.

But it's not going to happen is it? We will go to Cardiff and keep it tight and hope for a break. Big up how good they are.

And be unlucky............... again........................... and lose.

Negative rubbish is all I expect until the end.

And then, excuses.

F******G shambles.

[scram]

People can bang on about budgets all the time, but it's not the be all and end all unless we are talking about differences of many millions.

I know you like to beat this drum but the facts are the facts

It is the biggest single predictor of how a club will fare - that doesn't mean we have to be silly about it and cliam that a club should finish comensurate with their expenciture down to the last pound

But it is reliable when clubs are bracketed together in wage bands

[Wise_Owl]

If, at the start of that F1 season, we were told that we might get a podium finish, or at least get close to one, due to teams like Ferrari and Mclaren "cutting their clothes" and us getting the "cream of the crop" new tyres and helmets for poor old Maureen ..........yes

If you thought the answer to getting the Old Lady powering past the McLarens was to replace the driver, sack the pit team, or respray her in British Racing Green, then you need to stop breathing.

[Glaser]

If you thought the answer to getting the Old Lady powering past the McLarens was to replace the driver, sack the pit team, or respray her in British Racing Green, then you need to stop breathing.

Never said that.

I said that our expectations had been built up. A lot of "promise" was communicated.

we have not lived up to this, so we have surely "underachieved" compared to what we were told would happen at the seasons inception.

Thus the reason why we are allowed a moan............. not because we haven't been up there challenging Newcastle for the title

Edited April 12, 2010 by Glaser

[Wise_Owl]

Not strictly analogous though is it? And if those are our collective thoughts, then why did we appoint any manager anyway?

Are you saying that whomever took over it was beyond hope, even with hindsight?

All I am saying is that with a borderline relegation budget, which is likely to (on the whole) attract staff, playing and non-playing of that very standard, it would be extraordinary, not ordinary if the outcome was any different, particularly over several seasons.

Hope is one thing. Expectation is another.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Have your years as a Wednesdayite taught you nothing, young grasshopper?

:ls:

[bigrbuk]

oh woe is me!

Wednesday fans are Wednesday fans regardless of where we play our football, Newcastle or Yeovil, right?

All the bitching and moaning is making us look like idiots, again. We had enough of that during the past "regime", but now we got what we wanted, we've taken over the mantle ourselves. I bet DA is weeing himself reading this lot, not to mention all the blunts etc.

Get over it.

Yes, we're likely to be relegated now, but we've come back from worse. I for one am looking forward to a clear out and fresh start.

PS Please remember Irvine's interviews when he first joined, stating that he couldnt necessarily play the style of football he'd like in a relegation scrap. Give him a chance with a new season to see how he sets his stall out before slagging off his negative tactics.

[Wise_Owl]

Never said that.

I said that our expectations had been built up. A lot of "promise" was communicated.

we have not lived up to this, so we have surely "underachieved" compared to what we were told would happen at the seasons inception.

Thus the reason why we are allowed a moan............. not because we haven't been up there challenging Newcastle for the title

But if you had looked behind the sales pitch, the debt never changed; the wage budget was still bottom quarter fare, and any imminent investment was always going to be a bug question mark.

What unfilfilled promises, specifically, are you upset about?

[ReadingOwl]

Have your years as a Wednesdayite taught you nothing, young grasshopper?

I am warming to you Wise Owl. You talk sense.

Got to go and do my homework now. I have survey, has anyone completed it ye.........................

[mcmigo]

If you entered a Formula One campaign in a rusty Austin Princess, with a £2,000 budget for the season, and Maureen Rees as your designated driver, and didn't manage a single podium finish, would it entitle you to a moan about how your team had underperformed?

This season, perhaps for the first time since Turners wretched full League 1 season, we have performed below our budget position in the league so fans are entitled to moan.

Looking at the teams at the bottom - Plymouth only just stayed up last year so were expected to drop. Peterborough - newly promoted having been double promoted so expected to struggle. Palace - ten point deduction, manager walks half way through the season.

Only we have no excuse as to why we have been outperformed by teams operating on less money.

[Bluesteel]

He took over when third bottom with Plymouth and Peterborough below us and we remain 3rd bottom with Plymouth and Peterborough below us. How does this reflect him 'doing well'?

If we stay up - he will have done a good job.

If we go down - a very poor job.

Its not as simple as that. Picking a team off the floor and getting them motivated is difficult once they are fully embroiled in the negativity of a relegation battle, we wouldve struggled to beat a League 2 side between October and December...how about the team getting even 1 or 2 wins, maybe even a couple of draws then? Had we done that then we wouldnt be moaning about Irvine.

Once youre in a relegation fight it keeps you sucked in, many teams have found that with the exception of Reading.

Im just thinking its harsh blaming/judging a manager when all they have done is come in and try and clean up someone elses mess. We shouldve beaten Coventry, Derby and Bristol but we didnt, granted. However, had we trundled along picking up a few more points during those carcrash months we would be near enough to safety now.

[Bluesteel]

oh woe is me!

Wednesday fans are Wednesday fans regardless of where we play our football, Newcastle or Yeovil, right?

All the bitching and moaning is making us look like idiots, again. We had enough of that during the past "regime", but now we got what we wanted, we've taken over the mantle ourselves. I bet DA is weeing himself reading this lot, not to mention all the blunts etc.

Get over it.

Yes, we're likely to be relegated now, but we've come back from worse. I for one am looking forward to a clear out and fresh start.

PS Please remember Irvine's interviews when he first joined, stating that he couldnt necessarily play the style of football he'd like in a relegation scrap. Give him a chance with a new season to see how he sets his stall out before slagging off his negative tactics.

^^^^ This

[ReadingOwl]

^^^^ This

Yes I agree. Let's all not moan. Let's all not hope for a tactical change for the last three games (which many of us are crying out for - it's so obvious).

Let's take it up the rear without any lubrication and keep banging the tambourines.

It just makes you want to :st2:

[Max]

Yes I agree. Let's all not moan. Let's all not hope for a tactical change for the last three games (which many of us are crying out for - it's so obvious).

Let's take it up the rear without any lubrication and keep banging the tambourines.

It just makes you want to :st2:

In all seriousness, what does moaning, or arguing about who to moan at, achieve? What will moaning do to help us win on Sunday, and next week, and the week after?

Or does it just entrench the idea that we are down, deepen divisions between supporters when we need to stand together, and perpetuate a culture of blame which has hindered any progress at this club for years?

There's a time and place for navel-gazing and self-examination. It's not now.

[mcmigo]

Its not as simple as that. Picking a team off the floor and getting them motivated is difficult once they are fully embroiled in the negativity of a relegation battle, we wouldve struggled to beat a League 2 side between October and December...how about the team getting even 1 or 2 wins, maybe even a couple of draws then? Had we done that then we wouldnt be moaning about Irvine.

Once youre in a relegation fight it keeps you sucked in, many teams have found that with the exception of Reading.

Im just thinking its harsh blaming/judging a manager when all they have done is come in and try and clean up someone elses mess. We shouldve beaten Coventry, Derby and Bristol but we didnt, granted. However, had we trundled along picking up a few more points during those carcrash months we would be near enough to safety now.

Yorath, Shreeves and Laws - all managers who kept us up in similar, if not harder situations (in the case of Shreeves), and faced all of those very same issues.

As I have stated before, only Turner has failed to keep us up in these circumstances.

The arguments about Laws and Irvine etc - people said the same 7 years ago about Yorath and Turner - ie that it was all Taffys fault for signing crap like Knight, Owusu, Kuqi etc and poor Turner had no chance of keeping us up inheriting that squad. Almost everyone backed Turner for that reason and what a shocking decision that was (though I give him huge credit for building an excellent squad with no money in summer 2004).

Make no mistake - if we go down then Irvine joins Turner right at the top of our worst manager list.

[ReadingOwl]

There's a time and place for navel-gazing and self-examination. It's not now.

Sorry, it's still saveable IMO. One point, like from the last Nine, won't do it though in the coming three games. Only a change in attitude will.

Accepting the 'same old, same old' IMO isn't a change of attitude.

Thus having a good old moan might do two things;

1.Make me feel better

2. Get through to the players and management (I don't know how) and make them produce results.

Otherwise, what do you suggest. We just take it silently?

[Bluesteel]

Yes I agree. Let's all not moan. Let's all not hope for a tactical change for the last three games (which many of us are crying out for - it's so obvious).

Let's take it up the rear without any lubrication and keep banging the tambourines.

It just makes you want to :st2:

There's moaning and then theres Sheffield Wednesday moaning, which is usually pretty self destructive.

If Alan Irvine doesnt keep us up, he may have failed in his objective, but that doesnt mean that his objective was easy. If the argument is that we were only a few points from safety with 20 odd games remaining and that it wasnt that big a problem for us, then surely its still the case? Theres only a couple of points difference between us and the teams above, yet most of us are sure were down already...which suggests to me that there is a problem with the team and how theyve failed to handle being in a relegation fight this season, a relegation scrap which we nose dived into before Irvine arrived.

Any team that drops like a stone clearly has confidence issues, Irvine has tried to address this by keeping it tight and simple...its not ideal but we know what happens when we go all out attack relying upon the "score one more" mentality.

For what its worth I think Irvine needs to make attacking substitutions far earlier, but I can see why he is scared to do so.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Bluesteel

[Max]

Sorry, it's still saveable IMO. One point, like from the last Nine, won't do it though in the coming three games. Only a change in attitude will.

Accepting the 'same old, same old' IMO isn't a change of attitude.

Thus having a good old moan might do two things;

1.Make me feel better

2. Get through to the players and management (I don't know how) and make them produce results.

Otherwise, what do you suggest. We just take it silently?

I firmly believe it's still saveable, this is my point.

But moaning is taking it silently.

On this board we're not talking about how we're going to fight for survival, we're moaning about things, and arguing about who to moan about and to. Moaning and blaming. It's boring, and defeatist.

We're just sat around doing exactly what you don't want, accepting the 'same old, same old'. Whimpering and infighting is a route to relegation.

[bigrbuk]

If only we had some American enthuism and self-belief...

....anyone?!

[Glaser]

If only we had some American enthuism and self-belief...

....anyone?!

one of them needed the toilet, so I think he went looking for a pot

[ReadingOwl]

I firmly believe it's still saveable, this is my point.

But moaning is taking it silently.

On this board we're not talking about how we're going to fight for survival, we're moaning about things, and arguing about who to moan about and to. Moaning and blaming. It's boring, and defeatist.

We're just sat around doing exactly what you don't want, accepting the 'same old, same old'. Whimpering and infighting is a route to relegation.

Can't disagree, with your rationale in principle. I shall be up for the derby and Palace games (if there is anything to play for, I already have the tickets for both).

Let;s hope that you are right and I'm wrong.'

Keep the faith eh? It's bloody hard at times.