i used to be sc_owl Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I know you like to beat this drum but the facts are the facts It is the biggest single predictor of how a club will fare - that doesn't mean we have to be silly about it and cliam that a club should finish comensurate with their expenciture down to the last pound But it is reliable when clubs are bracketed together in wage bands That's sort of the point I've always made, though. I've never claimed finance doesn't play any part at all, simply that there are other factors. I've said on more than one occasion that the difference between say... us and Newcastle is obvious and to try and say we could overcome them is just barmy. However, take a club with a budget 20% higher than ours, that only really equates to another player or two. And just because a club has slightly more money it doesn't mean they've spent it wisely. If someone can dig out the estimated wage budgets for each club at the start of the season I'm more than happy to knock together a correlation on it and post it on here - and if I'm wrong... well I'm wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I firmly believe it's still saveable, this is my point. But moaning is taking it silently. On this board we're not talking about how we're going to fight for survival, we're moaning about things, and arguing about who to moan about and to. Moaning and blaming. It's boring, and defeatist. We're just sat around doing exactly what you don't want, accepting the 'same old, same old'. Whimpering and infighting is a route to relegation. Is it "moaning" - or is it what football fans have done since a ball was first kicked under association rules.....debate, analyse, argue, suggest, discuss and yes complain But it is the domain of the football fan and that's obviously how football fans like it to be We're not unique (though every clubs fans think they are) - take a random look at virtually any club website and the same themes appear - same points, same discussions - only club crests differ. You think it's boring - fair enough then do what most people would do with an optional read they think is boring It's not gonna change - it's never gonna change because that is the habitat of the football fan the world over And despite everything fans wouldn't have it any other way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 That's sort of the point I've always made, though. I've never claimed finance doesn't play any part at all, simply that there are other factors. I've said on more than one occasion that the difference between say... us and Newcastle is obvious and to try and say we could overcome them is just barmy. However, take a club with a budget 20% higher than ours, that only really equates to another player or two. And just because a club has slightly more money it doesn't mean they've spent it wisely. If someone can dig out the estimated wage budgets for each club at the start of the season I'm more than happy to knock together a correlation on it and post it on here - and if I'm wrong... well I'm wrong! I think we're broadly saying the same thing My contention is with the thought that the budget isn't that important - it is hugely important - but like everything it is not infallible 100% of the time and obviously it depends how it is spent - but all things being equal then the higher the budget (not a few quid here and there - but in real terms) then the better the prospects of that club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Is it "moaning" - or is it what football fans have done since a ball was first kicked under association rules.....debate, analyse, argue, suggest, discuss and yes complain But it is the domain of the football fan and that's obviously how football fans like it to be We're not unique (though every clubs fans think they are) - take a random look at virtually any club website and the same themes appear - same points, same discussions - only club crests differ. You think it's boring - fair enough then do what most people would do with an optional read they think is boring It's not gonna change - it's never gonna change because that is the habitat of the football fan the world over And despite everything fans wouldn't have it any other way I think we're talking across each other a bit. I've got no problem with us doing the whole normal football fan moaning business, when we "debate, analyse, argue, suggest, discuss and yes complain". That is, as you say, the very essence of being a fan. But for the last three weeks we've been having the same discussion - who is to blame. It's been like it's more important to work out which one single factor is the only reason we're down, and even more important, who was right about it, than anything to do with us staying up. It's besides the point while it's still in our hands, and, even more so, there is quite clearly not any one thing, but loads and loads of interrelated things. All this is is a perpetuation of the same internal arguing and pointing fingers which has held us back for so many years. The fans are showing the fight we want from the players - but we're not fighting the situation, we're fighting each other and whoever else we want to blame, all inside the club. Without doubt, we need to have a serious examination of this season - but why aren't we more concerned with keeping ourselves up, and less with getting one over on each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owlsfan Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 It's a bigger indicator at the more extreme ends of the scale. Once you get to the middle, it can be all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I think we're talking across each other a bit. I've got no problem with us doing the whole normal football fan moaning business, when we "debate, analyse, argue, suggest, discuss and yes complain". That is, as you say, the very essence of being a fan. But for the last three weeks we've been having the same discussion - who is to blame. It's been like it's more important to work out which one single factor is the only reason we're down, and even more important, who was right about it, than anything to do with us staying up. It's besides the point while it's still in our hands, and, even more so, there is quite clearly not any one thing, but loads and loads of interrelated things. All this is is a perpetuation of the same internal arguing and pointing fingers which has held us back for so many years. The fans are showing the fight we want from the players - but we're not fighting the situation, we're fighting each other and whoever else we want to blame, all inside the club. Without doubt, we need to have a serious examination of this season - but why aren't we more concerned with keeping ourselves up, and less with getting one over on each other? Okay fair do's I did misread - apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmigo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 I think we're talking across each other a bit. I've got no problem with us doing the whole normal football fan moaning business, when we "debate, analyse, argue, suggest, discuss and yes complain". That is, as you say, the very essence of being a fan. But for the last three weeks we've been having the same discussion - who is to blame. It's been like it's more important to work out which one single factor is the only reason we're down, and even more important, who was right about it, than anything to do with us staying up. It's besides the point while it's still in our hands, and, even more so, there is quite clearly not any one thing, but loads and loads of interrelated things. All this is is a perpetuation of the same internal arguing and pointing fingers which has held us back for so many years. The fans are showing the fight we want from the players - but we're not fighting the situation, we're fighting each other and whoever else we want to blame, all inside the club. Without doubt, we need to have a serious examination of this season - but why aren't we more concerned with keeping ourselves up, and less with getting one over on each other? Your post makes no sense whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing we fans can do now to keep us up - simply it is up to the players, our opponents and to a lesser extent the manager. We could be down at the OK Coral with our 6 shooters blasting each others brains out and it would make no difference to us staying up or otherwise. What can I do, as a fan, to keep us up? The answer is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheffield_dave Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 People at the club have got to start taking some accountability. Even with the piece Strafford has put on the OS about the Derby, it's right there again in the opening 2 paragraphs. Wanting the fans to get behind the club. Sorry, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, but right now the fans are the only ones who are doing their job right. This team is being supported home and away in numbers (perhaps not as many numbers as delusions may require, but still) and once again, the fans of this club are sticking by their club. We're still here, and in bigger numbers than the majority would be in our situation. So, when are people within the club going to start taking some responsibility? The players aren't and haven't been doing for the last 5-6 months. Irvine? Yeah, give him a chance, he's done OK.. but he's been manager of this team for long enough to have made a difference. As has already been suggested, worse managers than Irvine have taken over worse teams than this in similar circumstances and kept us up. Irvine was brought here to do a job; that job being to save the team from relegation. Dress it up how you like, but if we go down then he has failed in that task. I'm sick of reading excuses for people connected with SWFC. We must have the soppiest fanbase in the league. When are our fans going to stand up and say enough is enough? It's not about blame or throwing accusations, it's about taking some accountability for your actions, and right now Sheffield Wednesday Football Club are failing this clubs loyal supporters AGAIN. The names and the faces are different, the results are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaser Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Your post makes no sense whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing we fans can do now to keep us up - simply it is up to the players, our opponents and to a lesser extent the manager. We could be down at the OK Coral with our 6 shooters blasting each others brains out and it would make no difference to us staying up or otherwise. What can I do, as a fan, to keep us up? The answer is nothing. Sing to your hearts content on Sunday and do not get on the players backs if a misplaced pass goes astray, or someone does not close down a player as quickly as you liked It's amazing how players react to a crowds response.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Your post makes no sense whatsoever. There is absolutely nothing we fans can do now to keep us up - simply it is up to the players, our opponents and to a lesser extent the manager. We could be down at the OK Coral with our 6 shooters blasting each others brains out and it would make no difference to us staying up or otherwise. What can I do, as a fan, to keep us up? The answer is nothing. Are you saying, let's just get this clear, that players are completely unrelated to fans? You're saying that the number of fans, their mood, the atmosphere they create, the way they're talking, how they react, everything, has no affect on players or the manager, or the staff, at all? You're saying that things like belief can't filter between the stands and the pitch? Essentially, you're saying that players and fans live in two separate bubbles, where players can influence fans but not the other way round. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaser Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 People at the club have got to start taking some accountability. Even with the piece Strafford has put on the OS about the Derby, it's right there again in the opening 2 paragraphs. Wanting the fans to get behind the club. Sorry, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, but right now the fans are the only ones who are doing their job right. This team is being supported home and away in numbers (perhaps not as many numbers as delusions may require, but still) and once again, the fans of this club are sticking by their club. We're still here, and in bigger numbers than the majority would be in our situation. So, when are people within the club going to start taking some responsibility? The players aren't and haven't been doing for the last 5-6 months. Irvine? Yeah, give him a chance, he's done OK.. but he's been manager of this team for long enough to have made a difference. As has already been suggested, worse managers than Irvine have taken over worse teams than this in similar circumstances and kept us up. Irvine was brought here to do a job; that job being to save the team from relegation. Dress it up how you like, but if we go down then he has failed in that task. I'm sick of reading excuses for people connected with SWFC. We must have the soppiest fanbase in the league. When are our fans going to stand up and say enough is enough? It's not about blame or throwing accusations, it's about taking some accountability for your actions, and right now Sheffield Wednesday Football Club are failing this clubs loyal supporters AGAIN. The names and the faces are different, the results are the same. fantastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i used to be sc_owl Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 People at the club have got to start taking some accountability. Even with the piece Strafford has put on the OS about the Derby, it's right there again in the opening 2 paragraphs. Wanting the fans to get behind the club. Sorry, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, but right now the fans are the only ones who are doing their job right. This team is being supported home and away in numbers (perhaps not as many numbers as delusions may require, but still) and once again, the fans of this club are sticking by their club. We're still here, and in bigger numbers than the majority would be in our situation. So, when are people within the club going to start taking some responsibility? The players aren't and haven't been doing for the last 5-6 months. Irvine? Yeah, give him a chance, he's done OK.. but he's been manager of this team for long enough to have made a difference. As has already been suggested, worse managers than Irvine have taken over worse teams than this in similar circumstances and kept us up. Irvine was brought here to do a job; that job being to save the team from relegation. Dress it up how you like, but if we go down then he has failed in that task. I'm sick of reading excuses for people connected with SWFC. We must have the soppiest fanbase in the league. When are our fans going to stand up and say enough is enough? It's not about blame or throwing accusations, it's about taking some accountability for your actions, and right now Sheffield Wednesday Football Club are failing this clubs loyal supporters AGAIN. The names and the faces are different, the results are the same. Good points, well made. +1 from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 People at the club have got to start taking some accountability. Even with the piece Strafford has put on the OS about the Derby, it's right there again in the opening 2 paragraphs. Wanting the fans to get behind the club. Sorry, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, but right now the fans are the only ones who are doing their job right. This team is being supported home and away in numbers (perhaps not as many numbers as delusions may require, but still) and once again, the fans of this club are sticking by their club. We're still here, and in bigger numbers than the majority would be in our situation. So, when are people within the club going to start taking some responsibility? The players aren't and haven't been doing for the last 5-6 months. Irvine? Yeah, give him a chance, he's done OK.. but he's been manager of this team for long enough to have made a difference. As has already been suggested, worse managers than Irvine have taken over worse teams than this in similar circumstances and kept us up. Irvine was brought here to do a job; that job being to save the team from relegation. Dress it up how you like, but if we go down then he has failed in that task. I'm sick of reading excuses for people connected with SWFC. We must have the soppiest fanbase in the league. When are our fans going to stand up and say enough is enough? It's not about blame or throwing accusations, it's about taking some accountability for your actions, and right now Sheffield Wednesday Football Club are failing this clubs loyal supporters AGAIN. The names and the faces are different, the results are the same. Fine, you don't think the club is doing enough. Absolutely acceptable point of view, I'm sure there are arguments against it, but it is totally legitimate. But why does that stop you giving everything you have given and more on Sunday? If you know that fans, as a whole, can help the team, then can you put your issues with those at the club aside in order to do everything you can to help us stay up, knowing that at the end of this season there has to be, and no doubt will be, a serious examination of what went wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmigo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Are you saying, let's just get this clear, that players are completely unrelated to fans? You're saying that the number of fans, their mood, the atmosphere they create, the way they're talking, how they react, everything, has no affect on players or the manager, or the staff, at all? You're saying that things like belief can't filter between the stands and the pitch? Essentially, you're saying that players and fans live in two separate bubbles, where players can influence fans but not the other way round. Right? The link is richer and more fans = better playing budgets. Some of our best performances this season have been in front of truly rubbish crowds. You can shout and cheer all you want (and we do) - doesn't mean we'll stay up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 The link is richer and more fans = better playing budgets. Some of our best performances this season have been in front of truly rubbish crowds. You can shout and cheer all you want (and we do) - doesn't mean we'll stay up. "oh, we're so helpless, we're going down and i'm going to whimper and moan because i don't think i can do anything" Fuck off then. I want to fight for us to stay up, and I'm sure plenty of others do as well. I'm not saying we will influence the players, I'm saying we can. If we have that chance, shouldn't we take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owlsfan Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 People at the club have got to start taking some accountability.Even with the piece Strafford has put on the OS about the Derby, it's right there again in the opening 2 paragraphs. Wanting the fans to get behind the club. The two ain't connected. That's just the stock stuff any chairman should come out with ahead of any derby of this magnitude, you're reading way too much into that. Sorry, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, but right now the fans are the only ones who are doing their job right. This team is being supported home and away in numbers (perhaps not as many numbers as delusions may require, but still) and once again, the fans of this club are sticking by their club. We're still here, and in bigger numbers than the majority would be in our situation. Who specifically is it right now that isn't? Some players are clearly underperforming, but I can't see what LS and anyone at that level can do right now to affect this season, and Irvine has a mid table record with a side that Laws had a bottom 3 record with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Who specifically is it right now that isn't? Some players are clearly underperforming, but I can't see what LS and anyone at that level can do right now to affect this season, and Irvine has a mid table record with a side that Laws had a bottom 3 record with. He doesn't Their records aren't dissimilar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owlsfan Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 He doesn't Their records aren't dissimilar Irvine has 26 points from 20 games. Stretch that over most seasons and see where it gets you. Stretch that over this season and see where it gets you. Clue: It's midtable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaser Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 (edited) He doesn't Their records aren't dissimilar testicles Laws would have got us 39 points (his form extrapolated out for the entire season) Irvine would have got us 59 points (his form extrapolated out for the entire season) So...... Laws..... second bottom, relegated Irvine..... safe, possibly 9th - 12th Your defence of Laws is ridiculous Edited April 12, 2010 by Glaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scram Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Oooh there's nothing like statistics to "prove" a point are there? Here's another clue - after a few games under Mr Irvine we were showing "play-off" form - after a few more games it was "mid table form - and now after several more games it's getting perilously close to you know what.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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