SOUTH YORKSHIRE POLICE

[swfc261279]

I don't think there is any doubt that there were a "significant" number of Liverpool fans outside Hillsborough that day without tickets.

There is also no doubt that they arrived late.

These 2 accepted factors were the catalyst for a situation developing which exposed weaknesses in the policing and the stadium design.

Draw your own conclusions from what I am saying and consider this....

If it were possible to conduct a poll of every Liverpool fan in Sheffield that day, how many would admit to turning up late and ticketless and how far removed from the truth would that number be?

I can fully understand why they want the truth but it has to be the whole truth.

[Guest Distraught!]

Draw your own conclusions from what I am saying and consider this....

If it were possible to conduct a poll of every Liverpool fan in Sheffield that day, how many would admit to turning up late and ticketless and how far removed from the truth would that number be?

I can fully understand why they want the truth but it has to be the whole truth.

This is a moot point.

If there was a pile up on the M1 that killed several people and the driver who caused the accident was found to be over the drink drive limit and speeding, how many other motorists using the M1 that day would also openly admit that they could have been over the limit or speeding?

Similarly, poll students and ask how many have ever cheated in exams.

Drunken, ticketless fans had some contributory factor to the disaster but there were more significant factors involved. The things that the custodians of our safety are also loathe to admit.

The factors the police cannot blame others for is the series of mishaps that happened after 3:15 pm including stopping ambulances from getting to the dead and seriously injured. The disaster can be put down to a series of blunders. The cover up and lies surround the emergency response that happened after 3:15. The cover up in which the authorities deployed a corrupt and already discredited police force to "investigate" and get them off the hook.

Also, quite separate from the events at Hillsborough, how many people realize that the same authorities covered up the antics of that particular police force (re: West Midlands Serious Crime Squad) that included dozens of miscarriages of justice, allegations of brutality, torture and a tactic that became known as "plastic bagging" in which a suspect is deprived of air by placing a bag over his nose and mouth? Not one of the officers involved was subjected to anything other than minor internal disciplinary action and all kept their jobs. Detective Superintendent Stanley Beechey, who was at the time suspended from active duty for framing a man for armed robbery, played some kind of prominent role in the Hillsborough investigation. What role he played is unclear because it has so carefully been kept under wraps.

[Lythamowl]

Yeah you know what mate? I had a ticket, was on time and not drunk, but you know something else? Every breath I fought for might have been someone's last, I've carried that thought for 22 years!

So unless you were there, in '89, at the Man U game, or the Oldham game, then listen to the people who were there to find out what happened instead of reading it in the newspapers.

And fight with everything you've got against fences !!!!!!

you know what mate...I was there, I worked on the turnstiles and did every cup semi at hillsborough from 1983 to 1994 when I moved to the north west. I was interviewed as part of the enquiry and my grandmother kept press cuttings of yours truly on the pitch, fence etc until she passed away. I've had to live with what I saw on the day to for the last twenty years. Did you attempt CPR at 21 years old on the day, because I did multiple times. I had letters from families of people i'd helped or tried to help.

As a football supporter, there for the grace of god went I, so I wish no one ill....but....and its a big but. As someone who speaks from personal experience i'm getting tired now of the attempts to re- write history. If you wish to oportion blame (which to me seems to be what the justice campaign wants) its 3 fold.

old , under invested in ground with fencing

fatal policing decisions made by an officer who should have never been in charge

Supporters turned up late and continued to push (and no, they wernt all drunk by any means)

The Liverpool supporters were not to blame but have to accept some portion of responsibility for their involvement in the situation...

I'm saddened we have a whole generation of young people who have seen Jimmy Mcgoverns drama and think its gospel, cos it aint.

I guess we'll probably agree to differ but both carry terrible memories of that day until we turn our toes up too. May your gods go with you

[Dick_Turpin]

I don't think there is any doubt that there were a "significant" number of Liverpool fans outside Hillsborough that day without tickets.

There is also no doubt that they arrived late.

These 2 accepted factors were the catalyst for a situation developing which exposed weaknesses in the policing and the stadium design.

Draw your own conclusions from what I am saying and consider this....

If it were possible to conduct a poll of every Liverpool fan in Sheffield that day, how many would admit to turning up late and ticketless and how far removed from the truth would that number be?

I can fully understand why they want the truth but it has to be the whole truth.

Depends how you define significant and late. Taylor refuted large number of ticketless and the crush was building up well before what most if us would call late.

[TopperHeadon]

you know what mate...I was there, I worked on the turnstiles and did every cup semi at hillsborough from 1983 to 1994 when I moved to the north west. I was interviewed as part of the enquiry and my grandmother kept press cuttings of yours truly on the pitch, fence etc until she passed away. I've had to live with what I saw on the day to for the last twenty years. Did you attempt CPR at 21 years old on the day, because I did multiple times. I had letters from families of people i'd helped or tried to help.

As a football supporter, there for the grace of god went I, so I wish no one ill....but....and its a big but. As someone who speaks from personal experience i'm getting tired now of the attempts to re- write history. If you wish to oportion blame (which to me seems to be what the justice campaign wants) its 3 fold.

old , under invested in ground with fencing

fatal policing decisions made by an officer who should have never been in charge

Supporters turned up late and continued to push (and no, they wernt all drunk by any means)

The Liverpool supporters were not to blame but have to accept some portion of responsibility for their involvement in the situation...

I'm saddened we have a whole generation of young people who have seen Jimmy Mcgoverns drama and think its gospel, cos it aint.

I guess we'll probably agree to differ but both carry terrible memories of that day until we turn our toes up too. May your gods go with you

Lytham's post should be the final post on this thread (it won't be), because it will be impossible for anyone to give a more reasoned and accurate account of the events of that day.

I was laso there that day and I for one had to turn the McGovern durge off before the TV met an untimely fate. There's blame attached in plenty of quarters and that must always include Liverpool supporters.

RIP the 96

[fatzooma]

Lytham's post should be the final post on this thread (it won't be), because it will be impossible for anyone to give a more reasoned and accurate account of the events of that day.

I was laso there that day and I for one had to turn the McGovern durge off before the TV met an untimely fate. There's blame attached in plenty of quarters and that must always include Liverpool supporters.

RIP the 96

I got my post removed for mentioning justice for the 96.

[Lythamowl]

Thanks Topper, I agree