Guest mrbluesky Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 Worth a read… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheffwed1 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 Wrong section. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobness Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 "amateurs!" 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sham67 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 12 minutes ago, sheffwed1 said: Wrong section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 This kind of investment buyout is pretty much confined to history now. Never again will a club be bought this way. Still, it couldn't have happened to a nicer club 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bladeshater Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 What's the relevance with Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0742 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 1 hour ago, ChapSmurf said: This kind of investment buyout is pretty much confined to history now. Never again will a club be bought this way. Still, it couldn't have happened to a nicer club Agree wholeheartedly with your second point! However, out of interest, why don't you think this kind of investment buyout will happen again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 7 minutes ago, 0742 said: Agree wholeheartedly with your second point! However, out of interest, why don't you think this kind of investment buyout will happen again? I should have really said "leveraged buyout" rather than "investment". It's the same thing but the term I used is incorrect. A leveraged buyout is essentially a loan from one company, to faciliatate the purchase of another. The lender invests in the assests of the purchased company in many respects, although their gains are normally through the interest payments made on the loan. In plain English, the Glazers never really bought Man Utd PLC. Citadel, Och-Ziff Capital Management and Perry Capital did, to the tune of £600M, with c. £60M p.a. in interest. The full amount of £600M to purchase Man Utd still remains outstanding. As far the EPL are concerned, this is not what they want. They want a Chelsea/Man City model - even Sheffield Wednesday model - whereby the owner of the club pays for the club with his/her money, not a leveraged buyout with essentially 3rd party investors, whom the club owe money to. The Glazer's did nothing wrong at the time, but it's just not what the EPL want these days, and so the EFL will surely follow suit. If a prospective buyer doesn't have the necessary funds to buy a club, they can by all means raise them however they want. But that debt is theirs, not the clubs. That's not the case with Man Utd. Does that make sense/answer your question? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0742 Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, ChapSmurf said: I should have really said "leveraged buyout" rather than "investment". It's the same thing but the term I used is incorrect. A leveraged buyout is essentially a loan from one company, to faciliatate the purchase of another. The lender invests in the assests of the purchased company in many respects, although their gains are normally through the interest payments made on the loan. In plain English, the Glazers never really bought Man Utd PLC. Citadel, Och-Ziff Capital Management and Perry Capital did, to the tune of £600M, with c. £60M p.a. in interest. The full amount of £600M to purchase Man Utd still remains outstanding. As far the EPL are concerned, this is not what they want. They want a Chelsea/Man City model - even Sheffield Wednesday model - whereby the owner of the club pays for the club with his/her money, not a leveraged buyout with essentially 3rd party investors, whom the club owe money to. The Glazer's did nothing wrong at the time, but it's just not what the EPL want these days, and so the EFL will surely follow suit. If a prospective buyer doesn't have the necessary funds to buy a club, they can by all means raise them however they want. But that debt is theirs, not the clubs. That's not the case with Man Utd. Does that make sense/answer your question? It does, thank you for the additional details! i am aware of what a leveraged buyout is, have been through the process myself/with companies i've been involved with, i was just curious as to why you thought the EPL wouldn't go for this type of deal anymore. But again, appreciate you explaining that too. Fascinating thread on Man Utd, the deal does stink , but then this type of purchase happens in business all of the time and i'm sure if Man Utd had spent better on players and their exec team had performed better they'd probably not be too bothered! Thankfully, it seems things will only get worse before they get better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 Just now, 0742 said: It does, thank you for the additional details! i am aware of what a leveraged buyout is, have been through the process myself/with companies i've been involved with, i was just curious as to why you thought the EPL wouldn't go for this type of deal anymore. But again, appreciate you explaining that too. Fascinating thread on Man Utd, the deal does stink , but then this type of purchase happens in business all of the time and i'm sure if Man Utd had spent better on players and their exec team had performed better they'd probably not be too bothered! Thankfully, it seems things will only get worse before they get better Now you tell me you know what a leveraged buyout is I guess it will explain it for others who may not know. As you said, this kind of deal happens all the time in business. It's very common. It's just my opinion, although I have heard rumours in the public domain, that this kind of deal will not be acceptable going forward. I'm certainly no expert on Man Utd's finances, nor anywhere near as knowledgeable as SwissRamble on all things financial, but it certainly does make a fascinating read and has done for a good few years. Morally, the Glazers are doing little wrong. From a business perspective, they are creaming it off the top whilst keeping a very large debt servicable. One could argue it's the model of sustainability. Whilst other PL teams are relient upon theirs owners wealth, Man Utd are only spending what they make. Their problem is, it's being spent on the wrong things (useless signings/managers) whilst their commercial revenue has stalled and cash balance dropped to a very low, and very concerning, level. It's right funny to watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewswfc Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 26 minutes ago, ChapSmurf said: Now you tell me you know what a leveraged buyout is I guess it will explain it for others who may not know. As you said, this kind of deal happens all the time in business. It's very common. It's just my opinion, although I have heard rumours in the public domain, that this kind of deal will not be acceptable going forward. I'm certainly no expert on Man Utd's finances, nor anywhere near as knowledgeable as SwissRamble on all things financial, but it certainly does make a fascinating read and has done for a good few years. Morally, the Glazers are doing little wrong. From a business perspective, they are creaming it off the top whilst keeping a very large debt servicable. One could argue it's the model of sustainability. Whilst other PL teams are relient upon theirs owners wealth, Man Utd are only spending what they make. Their problem is, it's being spent on the wrong things (useless signings/managers) whilst their commercial revenue has stalled and cash balance dropped to a very low, and very concerning, level. It's right funny to watch Wasn't Burnley bought like this recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 12 minutes ago, Drewswfc said: Wasn't Burnley bought like this recently? Recently being almost 2 years ago, but yes, pretty much exactly the same way via a leveraged buyout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewswfc Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 2 hours ago, ChapSmurf said: Recently being almost 2 years ago, but yes, pretty much exactly the same way via a leveraged buyout. Wow that long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Drewswfc said: Wow that long ago. I must admit, I didn't think it was that long ago either, but December 2020 from one news article I spotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Drewswfc said: Wow that long ago. I should add, I don't know what exactly is prompting the EPL to look at ownership/leveraged buyouts, but I guess the Burnley situation and the immediate £90M debt they got in to has a lot to do with it. As does Man Utd and how that all panned out. Guess work on my part though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewswfc Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 10 minutes ago, ChapSmurf said: I should add, I don't know what exactly is prompting the EPL to look at ownership/leveraged buyouts, but I guess the Burnley situation and the immediate £90M debt they got in to has a lot to do with it. As does Man Utd and how that all panned out. Guess work on my part though. When I read about the Burnley take over it seemed to me like they were buying the club with the clubs own money. Didn't seem right to me. Is the 90m debt from buying the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapSmurf Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Drewswfc said: When I read about the Burnley take over it seemed to me like they were buying the club with the clubs own money. Didn't seem right to me. Is the 90m debt from buying the club Apparently so. They've essentially paid off some of the shareholders - or some of the shareholding value - with cash from within the club, alongside a hedge/leveraged mortgage type deal. According to some people within the club (this is information in the public domain), the cash and loan add up to about £90M. This was okay whilst the club was in the PL and valued at £200M, but we all know what happened to them last season. Whilst our own situation of us selling our ground is far from ideal, it does make you wonder if these clubs have got it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S36 OWL Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 15 hours ago, bobness said: "amateurs!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morepork Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 The current state of Man U, it’s a beautiful thing!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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