"Moore wants Wednesday to be more tactically flexible next season."

[Teddy Nickelarse]

Just now, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Cool. I wasn't sure!

 

I think Moore's hands were tied to a certain extent last season, as we didn't have the players available to make other formations work nearly as well as 3-5-2. Going forward though, he clearly wants to address that, which can only be a good thing.

To be fair I responded to your first question and whilst I read and agreed with your second sentence I'd missed the "weren't they" followed by ? hence my ambiguous and potentially argumentative  reply.

I certainly agree with you on this. If the whispers of Smith have any truth that would certainly be a significant step in terms of potential flexibility.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 minute ago, royalowlisback said:

He signed a shed-load of players that didn't fit his system, Corbeanu, Shodipo, NML - those wages could have gone elsewhere, or another formation could have been used, one that involves the abundance of wingers in the squad - a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 (with Gregory flanked by 2 of the wingers).

 

To say he didn't have options is simply untrue - he chose not to use them.

 

I don't think Gregory really looked comfortable as a lone forward, though - did you? We probably needed a target-man style centre forward to make a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 work.

 

4-4-2 would have maintained the front two which got Gregory firing, but then we'd have been back to the age-old issue of Bannan not excelling in a central pairing, as well as having to work out who to play in the wide positions: Corbeanu took a while to recover from a nasty illness at the start of the season and largely flattered to deceive; Shodipo was injured for much of the season and never really got going when he did have a spell of fitness in the autumn; Brown looked promising for a few games and then faded badly...

 

I suppose we could have gone with Palmer at left-back, Hunt at right-back, Johnson on the left wing, and made do with whoever was fit enough on the right wing until we signed Mendez-Laing in late November, but I can understand why he didn't think this was going to work as well as 3-5-2 once he saw how the players were performing.

[ashley8]

Is someone going to teach him some tactics then..... like not playing it out from he back when you can't organise your defense and they are low in confidence..... Constantly saying he adapts to the opposition.... in a league with very poor quality opposition and struggling and ghe players looking blank ag each other..... maybe if we are stuck with him then additions to his back room staff could help.....

[royalowlisback]

2 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

I don't think Gregory really looked comfortable as a lone forward, though - did you? We probably needed a target-man style centre forward to make a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3 work.

 

4-4-2 would have maintained the front two which got Gregory firing, but then we'd have been back to the age-old issue of Bannan not excelling in a central pairing, as well as having to work out who to play in the wide positions: Corbeanu took a while to recover from a nasty illness at the start of the season and largely flattered to deceive; Shodipo was injured for much of the season and never really got going when he did have a spell of fitness in the autumn; Brown looked promising for a few games and then faded badly...

 

I suppose we could have gone with Palmer at left-back, Hunt at right-back, Johnson on the left wing, and made do with whoever was fit enough on the right wing until we signed Mendez-Laing in late November, but I can understand why he didn't think this was going to work as well as 3-5-2 once he saw how the players were performing.

Palmer and Johnson on the left, with Hunt and Corbeanu on the right with have given us great balance, been solid going forward and back, and allowed a partner to play off Gregory - be that Berahinho, Patterson or whoever DM deemed best suited in that system.

 

To enable the 3-5-2 - we had the ridiculous games (and lost points) of Johnson and Palmer as makeshift Centre-Backs - it was insane to shoehorn those players into those positions - having Bannan in a midfield 2, wouldn't be half as bad as having Johnson and Palmer in a back 3.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

10 minutes ago, Teddy Nickelarse said:

To be fair I responded to your first question and whilst I read and agreed with your second sentence I'd missed the "weren't they" followed by ? hence my ambiguous and potentially argumentative  reply.

I certainly agree with you on this. If the whispers of Smith have any truth that would certainly be a significant step in terms of potential flexibility.

 

Yep - signing a centre-forward capable of dominating in the air, bringing others into play, and holding his own up top as a lone striker is crucial this summer, in my opinion.

 

If we ended up with something like this as our options, that would be pretty decent:

 

 

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

2 minutes ago, royalowlisback said:

Palmer and Johnson on the left, with Hunt and Corbeanu on the right with have given us great balance, been solid going forward and back, and allowed a partner to play off Gregory - be that Berahinho, Patterson or whoever DM deemed best suited in that system.

 

To enable the 3-5-2 - we had the ridiculous games (and lost points) of Johnson and Palmer as makeshift Centre-Backs - it was insane to shoehorn those players into those positions - having Bannan in a midfield 2, wouldn't be half as bad as having Johnson and Palmer in a back 3.

 

I'm no expert, but I'm sure there's a reason why he decided that 3-5-2 was the lesser of two evils.

 

Not many teams play a 4-4-2 these days, even at our level. The fact that most opponents have three in the centre of the park means you're most probably handing them control of the centre of the pitch if you go with a central pair, which can be very damaging.

[royalowlisback]

1 minute ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

I'm no expert, but I'm sure there's a reason why he decided that 3-5-2 was the lesser of two evils.

 

Not many teams play a 4-4-2 these days, even at our level. The fact that most opponents have three in the centre of the park means you're most probably handing them control of the centre of the pitch if you go with a central pair, which can be very damaging.

The whole debate about Moore needing to be more flexible highlights one of his weaknesses to me - we had the players (he actually signed them) to play a whole range of different systems, we had a squad very heavy on wingers, and just didn't play them, other teams, on much lower budgets, with much smaller squads could adapt their playing style and formation - we were pretty much stuck, even during games we very rarely changed things - he has to to better next season - not sign say Wilks and Anderson and try shoe-horning them into the wing-back positions....

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

5 minutes ago, royalowlisback said:

The whole debate about Moore needing to be more flexible highlights one of his weaknesses to me - we had the players (he actually signed them) to play a whole range of different systems, we had a squad very heavy on wingers, and just didn't play them, other teams, on much lower budgets, with much smaller squads could adapt their playing style and formation - we were pretty much stuck, even during games we very rarely changed things - he has to to better next season - not sign say Wilks and Anderson and try shoe-horning them into the wing-back positions....

 

I just don't think we had the pool of for and available forwards to try too much different to what we used.

 

I do wonder whether we were after a target man last season in order to make a different system work more consistently?

 

We know Moore wanted to sign another left-sided centre-back, for example, but was unable to. Who knows what other players we couldn't get over the line?

 

You're right, though, in that shoe-horning wingers / forwards into wingback roles next season would seem crazy.

 

Tactical flexibility of the kind Wigan used last season would be great.

 

We mustn't tie ourselves up in knots and lose sight of where our strengths lie in the process, though.

[steelerian]

2 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

After all, as I posted on here the other week, they've just watched Wigan win the division by being tactically flexible and adapting their approach on a game-by-game basis at times.

 

Their starting formations during last season were:

 

4-2-3-1:    25 games

3-4-1-2:    8 games

3-4-2-1:    5 games

4-4-2:       4 games

3-5-2:       2 games

4-3-3:       1 game

3-1-4-2:    1 game

 

Whilst they clearly had a favoured formation, they still started with something different in 46% of their matches, which is something we might need to be prepared to do in order to face up to the different challenges our opponents will pose over the course of the season.

If the opposition are changing their formation for 46% of games, how the heck are we supposed to know which formation they will play, and counter it with a formation accordingly?

 

Seriously, just get our best team out on the pitch, play them, and let the oppo worry about us.

 

We are Swfc, in L1. We are the big boys. Act like it, and let the others do the worrying.

 

 

[Tewkesbury]

Just now, steelerian said:

We are Swfc, in L1. We are the big boys. Act like it, and let the others do the worrying.

 

 

We tried that last season, hence us being the big boys in L1 and not Sunderland.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

5 minutes ago, steelerian said:

If the opposition are changing their formation for 46% of games, how the heck are we supposed to know which formation they will play, and counter it with a formation accordingly?

 

Seriously, just get our best team out on the pitch, play them, and let the oppo worry about us.

 

We are Swfc, in L1. We are the big boys. Act like it, and let the others do the worrying.

 

I doubt all teams at this level change formation that often.

 

I was just making the point that Wigan, who won the league, did.

 

I never understand why tactical flexibility tends to get characterised as 'worrying about the opposition' on here. Maybe we've all been scarred by Alan Irvine's time in charge?

 

 

Done properly, as Wigan and Sunderland showed last season, adapting your formation and lineup can be about exploiting perceived weaknesses in the opponent more than anything else.

[Guest Jack the Hat]

5 hours ago, royalowlisback said:

He signed a shed-load of players that didn't fit his system, Corbeanu, Shodipo, NML - those wages could have gone elsewhere, or another formation could have been used, one that involves the abundance of wingers in the squad - a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 (with Gregory flanked by 2 of the wingers).

 

To say he didn't have options is simply untrue - he chose not to use them.

I agree with this. When he came he had 10 or so games to save the season but tried to shoehorn the players into his system killing any lingering hopes of staying up . Then we sign lots players randomly giving us one of the highest paid squads in the league , but the recruitment is every bit as scattergun as it was before. We then get 10 from the first 12 before he starts randomly changing the team and we drop off. Take cornbeneau for example, we sign him, don’t play him and he goes to one of our rivals. We sign a few more in January and only begin to play well when we have injuries thus reducing the formation options. So far the one centre back we have signed is apparantly not a ball player so doesn’t fit into his ‘system’, if you can call it that. For a wednesday manager he has a charmed life and many in the fan base seem ready to make excuses. If the squad was unbalanced squad it was down to him. But I don’t think it was I just don’t think he really knows what he is doing tactically, particularly in game when he was outdone so many times last season.

[Luke]

1 hour ago, Jack the Hat said:

I agree with this. When he came he had 10 or so games to save the season but tried to shoehorn the players into his system killing any lingering hopes of staying up . Then we sign lots players randomly giving us one of the highest paid squads in the league , but the recruitment is every bit as scattergun as it was before. We then get 10 from the first 12 before he starts randomly changing the team and we drop off. Take cornbeneau for example, we sign him, don’t play him and he goes to one of our rivals. We sign a few more in January and only begin to play well when we have injuries thus reducing the formation options. So far the one centre back we have signed is apparantly not a ball player so doesn’t fit into his ‘system’, if you can call it that. For a wednesday manager he has a charmed life and many in the fan base seem ready to make excuses. If the squad was unbalanced squad it was down to him. But I don’t think it was I just don’t think he really knows what he is doing tactically, particularly in game when he was outdone so many times last season.

This 

Moore will be exposed again next season 

[Guest Musttryharder]

8 hours ago, royalowlisback said:

He signed a shed-load of players that didn't fit his system, Corbeanu, Shodipo, NML - those wages could have gone elsewhere, or another formation could have been used, one that involves the abundance of wingers in the squad - a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 (with Gregory flanked by 2 of the wingers).

 

To say he didn't have options is simply untrue - he chose not to use them.

Hang about. Did he ever or very seldom play any of those players in their favoured positions. NO he didnt. Again how many times was it said on here, square pegs in round holes. Anyone of those players you have mentioned were capable matchwinners if they had been used better by Moore. Yes Moore is nice guy but not very tactically aware and doesnt have a contingency plan. Corbeanu for starters must have thought, wheres he going to play me next. Wolves saw through it thats why they pulled him  from Wednesday. A tad embarrashing at the time.

[Guest Musttryharder]

8 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Yep - signing a centre-forward capable of dominating in the air, bringing others into play, and holding his own up top as a lone striker is crucial this summer, in my opinion.

 

If we ended up with something like this as our options, that would be pretty decent:

 

 

Is Smith, Luongo and Wilkes signing. Im always days late with the news.  If not theres going to a lot of question mark players. However Im aware Jack Hunt as re - signed.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

1 minute ago, Musttryharder said:

Is Smith, Luongo and Wilkes signing. Im always days late with the news.  If not theres going to a lot of question mark players. However Im aware Jack Hunt as re - signed.

 

We're reportedly interested in Smith and other target-man style forwards, but there's nothing to suggest a signing is imminent.

 

Wilks seems likely based on reports, but nothing confirmed yet.

 

Not heard anything re: Luongo.

[Utah Owl]

11 hours ago, alanharper said:

If only Daz had been more tactically flexible last season... 

Bit difficult when you live in Florida!

[The coach]

Moore will be under some serious pressure this season.....hanging around 7th all season is not good enough..see where we are after 10 games..then some big decisions may have to be made...personally I don’t think Dm as it in him to boss this league..and would anybody be confident of goin up if we scrape in to the play offs?

[Dutch McLovin]

11 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Did we have the players to adopt different formations last season, though?

 

Once it became clear that Gregory wasn't great as a lone forward, 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 were pretty much off the table, weren't they?

Exactly. Gregory or 1 up top in general just doesn’t work for us. 

 

However well his change to 352 worked there are other ways of getting 2 up top. 442 being the obvious one.

 

The formation really doesn’t bother me that much - it’s all about the mentality. We spent far too much of last season worrying about the opposition. If we concentrate more on ourselves we can take the game away from teams, even this year when in all honesty I can’t see us having as talented squad as last year. That’s where moore has to improve. 

[Owls2k]

12 hours ago, Quickly Kevin said:

Moore looking to work on a flaw from last season is a positive.

 

There is no need to snipe about last season etc.

 

Lets hope our signings allow for it and it stops us dropping crucial points.

 

It would be annoying if he wasn't working on it.

If you fail in your clear and obtainable objective you should expect some criticism, and expect a closer eye on you if you get another chance. 

 

What might also help us dropping crucial points is our manager, who was a very good defender in his day, teaching his side how to defend properly. Those 2 goals we conceded in the play offs were an embarrassment, and let's not forget Jack Clarke running the full length of Penistone Road with the ball earlier too when he should have tackled into the Don.