If We'd Sacked Darren Moore...

[Emerson Thome]

4 hours ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

For all those fans that are happy with Sheffield Wednesday finishing 5th in league 1, it’s basically the equivalent of Man Utd finishing 15th and their fans being fine with it. Other big clubs don’t accept this kind of mediocrity and nor should we.

 

Man Utd haven't finished 15th since they got promoted back to Division 1 in 1975 (worst finish = 13th in 1989/90, and that year they won the FA Cup).

 

In the time since then, we have finished 5th in Div 3 or worse 7 times (out of our 9 seasons in this league):

 

20th in Divison 3 (1975/76)

16th in Division 3 (2003/04)

15th in Division 3 (2010/11)

14th in Division 3 (1977/78)

14th in Division 3 (1978/79)

8th in Division 3 (1976/77)

5th in Division 3 (2004/05)

 

So it is not exactly like we have a past record of strolling this league.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Emerson Thome said:

 

Man Utd haven't finished 15th since they got promoted back to Division 1 in 1975 (worst finish = 13th in 1989/90, and that year they won the FA Cup).

 

In the time since then, we have finished 5th in Div 3 or worse 7 times (out of our 9 seasons in this league):

 

20th in Divison 3 (1975/76)

16th in Division 3 (2003/04)

15th in Division 3 (2010/11)

14th in Division 3 (1977/78)

14th in Division 3 (1978/79)

8th in Division 3 (1976/77)

5th in Division 3 (2004/05)

 

So it is not exactly like we have a past record of strolling this league.

The point I’m trying to make is imagine if one of those big clubs finished 15th, their fans would be going crazy about it and certainly wouldn’t be saying the manager was doing a good job.

 

I think we’ve under achieved. Sheffield is the 4th largest city in England, we have a history of finishing in the top flight (our average position in each decade between 1892 and 2000 was within the top flight except the 70s) and we’ve been served up with rubbish for 20 years.

 

For much of that 20 years there’s been reasons, like a lack of budget but we don’t have that excuse this season.

 

We should be doing/expect better. Moore has had the whole season and overall he’s fallen short where it counts. Yes we’ve had some good results and performances but we also haven’t had the consistency of performances required to get automatics.

 

Play offs could go either way as we could easily not turn up in one of the games. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, new zealand owl said:

Yep its a well argued point.  I think some of the younger fans are just happy we are winning fairly regularly again but ultimately when we get promoted out of this league the overwhelming feeling will be relief for most fans and that tells its own story. 

 

Saying that we have to believe we are building something otherwise whats the point? DM has clearly demonstrated his ability to attract a player and has got us playing some decent stuff.  He will be judged over what happens in the next 5/ hopefully 8 games. The likelihood is we will fail given the chance of promotion via the play offs so already im thinking the first 15 games of next season will decide his fate. Automatic promotion is a must next season if we don't go up this time.

At this point would take the play offs as I’m not convinced we will get them, particularly if we lose at MK Dons and end up behind Sunderland and Wycombe. We will end up going to Wycombe needing a result and could fold at that point.

 

If we do make the play offs i think he’ll start next season. But I’ve not seen anything on his CV or his time here that suggests he would be able to achieve consistent results for a whole season. It will probably be more of the same as this season - some good results and performances and other games where we don’t turn up, end result being underperformance.

[parajack]

3 hours ago, Emerson Thome said:

 

Man Utd haven't finished 15th since they got promoted back to Division 1 in 1975 (worst finish = 13th in 1989/90, and that year they won the FA Cup).

 

In the time since then, we have finished 5th in Div 3 or worse 7 times (out of our 9 seasons in this league):

 

20th in Divison 3 (1975/76)

16th in Division 3 (2003/04)

15th in Division 3 (2010/11)

14th in Division 3 (1977/78)

14th in Division 3 (1978/79)

8th in Division 3 (1976/77)

5th in Division 3 (2004/05)

 

So it is not exactly like we have a past record of strolling this league.

Whats that got to do with this season?..More meaningless stats......its WHY we are 5th thats causing issues......13 draws,losing match's late in games, etc etc

[parajack]

8 hours ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said:

Jury still out for me.  As soon as the injured players started coming back so did the baffling team selection choices.

 

Even with likes of harley Dean brought in we look a shambles defensively from set plays and too much chopping and changing up front.

You will just find people dont want to hear it mate.........

[Screen Door Slams]

George byers didn`t "return to match fitness" .....after Adfeniran`s injury DM picked the ineffectual Dele-Bashiru for some bizarre reason , we had to wait for FDB to be injured to see Byers get his chance , and yes..............Dean and Storey were excellent January signings but John-Jules was totally unnecessary..................it was an extra midfield body that was needed.

 

Sacking Moore at the new year made sense to me as he had made a fair old mess of the first 4 months of the season.........sacking him now makes no sense at all , it would be like when the blunts sacked Wilson that season when they put "club stalwart" Chris Morgan in charge and they got dumped out of the play off semi by Yeovil ?

 

As for Diego Moorinho.......................maybe he would have failed like Cook and Hughton did in their last jobs , who loads on here wanted (me included with Cook)........or maybe he would have done a sterling job like Gary Rowett has at Millwall who loads on here derided.

 

This season could still turn out to be DM,s finest hour , or it could still collapse into him getting the boot ...............biggest wage bill and squad in the division , no excuses for me.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

8 hours ago, wellbeaten-the-owl said:

Jury still out for me.  As soon as the injured players started coming back so did the baffling team selection choices.

 

Even with likes of harley Dean brought in we look a shambles defensively from set plays and too much chopping and changing up front.

 

When are you referring to here when you say 'the baffling team selection choices' started?

[parajack]

43 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

At this point would take the play offs as I’m not convinced we will get them, particularly if we lose at MK Dons and end up behind Sunderland and Wycombe. We will end up going to Wycombe needing a result and could fold at that point.

 

If we do make the play offs i think he’ll start next season. But I’ve not seen anything on his CV or his time here that suggests he would be able to achieve consistent results for a whole season. It will probably be more of the same as this season - some good results and performances and other games where we don’t turn up, end result being underperformance.

DM has done a good job in many ways as has been described,our results have improved in the second half  but is that good enough with the team,and budget he has had this season?  

Assuming we will storm the League next Year if we dont go up this Year is just wishful thinking,how many of our current squad will even be here??  Look at the loan players we have,contracts ending, and NO guarantee at all,that Darren wont return to previous flawed thinking and start the Season trying to play it out again,with a lone striker...

This Year was/is our best chance to go back up..........and thats the origin of most of the critique..

[onlyonedavidhirst]

It's funny reading a thread like this as there's validity in almost every post, in fact I'm struggling to find fault with what people have written. Yet there's conflicted opinion and ultimately differing views on DMs performance. 

For me it goes something like this, our first half of the season was an underperformance, but there were lots of reasons why (ridiculous injuries, Covid, new players coming together, finding a formation), some of which can be put at the managers door and some of which can't. Two catastrophic performances around the new year caused for some fans to lose hope deciding that the recent upturn was merely a blip and that those 2 games were showing us to be no different to earlier in the season. Our form since then has been excellent, but there's still a couple of concerns, firstly our away form and secondly our inability to learn how to defend set pieces. We are now at a critical point of the season where everything is possible, but given what's happening around us we could still have made automatics if we had put a run together the likes of which Dave Jones managed. Given that we probably have the highest or 2nd highest wage budget in the division and have some obvious Championship players, but knowing that Sunderland are similar and doing no better then it's hard to genuinely gauge how DM is doing. Some will say he's turning it around, some will say that he could have turned it quicker and with more power if only he learnt quicker. His underperformance in the Championship doesn't help, but again there were reasons, however we were capable of stopping up and he didn't find a way. 

Think that covers most posts. For me, I think he starts as manager next season come what may, but I want to see him recognise the shortcomings and put them right or I'll get twitchy. Yes the away form needs sorting out, so does the set pieces, its also obvious that our striker recruitment bar Gregory hasn't given us the best balance for this league. Oh and he needs to insist that the pink away shirt goes and is just a fashion item haha

[Steve Down South]

3 hours ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

We've taken 12 points from our last 6 matches (so 2 points per game), and 21 from our last 10 (2.1 ppg). 

 

I'd say that's pretty decent form.

 

Over a full season, it would get you around 92-97 points.

No argument with your maths, taking any emotion out of it suggests we’re in decent form, but I can’t shake the feeling we’re missing a big opportunity this season.  Something’s not quite right, hence we follow a 6-0 win two very disappointing draws, get it back together with a 4-1 win and then fail to back that up with convincing performances in the following two games.  I think a very strong run of games late in January and through February is helping to mask the inconsistency that will cause us to miss out on promotion.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

5 minutes ago, Screen Door Slams said:

George byers didn`t "return to match fitness" .....after Adfeniran`s injury DM picked the ineffectual Dele-Bashiru for some bizarre reason , we had to wait for FDB to be injured to see Byers get his chance , and yes..............Dean and Storey were excellent January signings but John-Jules was totally unnecessary..................it was an extra midfield body that was needed.

 

Byers suffered a serious groin injury in September. From the sound of things, it took him until the new year to be ready for a full return to match fitness...

 

"I didn't expect to be out for as long as I was."

 

"I had to have an injection to help the injury and that settled it down."

 

“To get an injury when you’re not really settled in is frustrating, but these things happen and since the turn of the year things have been good for me. I’m in a good place, and I really want to kick on now.”

 

“Playing free football with no pain and no injuries. I feel like I’m in a good place now, and getting a good runs of games helps that. I’m feeling good.”

[Guest]

Here are MK Dons fixtures after us:

 

Oxford (A)

Morecambe (H)

Plymouth (A)

 

Here are Rotherham’s last 5 games:

 

Ipswich (H)

Burton (A)

Oxford (H)

Sunderland (A)

Gillingham (A)

 

You can certainly see a scenario where MK Dons only pick 4 more points up, and also a scenario where Rotherham get 7 points or less from those 5 games on current form.

 

That would mean 88 would get 2nd, so if we won the last 5 we’d have a small chance. 
 

It’s also pretty clear that 92 would almost certainly be enough, and 90 probably will be enough. 
 

We’re 6 points or so short of being in a really good position to take 2nd. This is where the frustration lies for me because I feel a better manager would have had those extra 6 points from the 21 games where we’ve dropped points this season.

 

Might be harsh on Moore but that’s the reality of it, fine margins at the business end of the season. Autos have been there for the taking and we’ve probably not done it.

[StudentOwl]

8 hours ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

For all those fans that are happy with Sheffield Wednesday finishing 5th in league 1, it’s basically the equivalent of Man Utd finishing 15th and their fans being fine with it. Other big clubs don’t accept this kind of mediocrity and nor should we.

We've been run as a shambles for years, have a training ground that's 3 decades out of date, probably one of the worst-form teams out of all the teams in this league if you look at results over the last 3 years and have a pitch that's probably one of the less good ones at this level.

 

What on earth are you basing the statement in bold on? Historical massiveness? Counts for nothing.

 

Bet Sunderland fans have been saying similar to you and all too... how long have they been down here?

Edited April 13, 2022 by StudentOwl

[Tewkesbury]

What would the numbers be if we'd sacked Moore and let the team pick itself?

 

The only times we've won more than two on the bounce have been when DM himself said that the team picked itself due to injuries.

[Screen Door Slams]

18 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

 

Byers suffered a serious groin injury in September. From the sound of things, it took him until the new year to be ready for a full return to match fitness...

 

"I didn't expect to be out for as long as I was."

 

"I had to have an injection to help the injury and that settled it down."

 

“To get an injury when you’re not really settled in is frustrating, but these things happen and since the turn of the year things have been good for me. I’m in a good place, and I really want to kick on now.”

 

“Playing free football with no pain and no injuries. I feel like I’m in a good place now, and getting a good runs of games helps that. I’m feeling good.”

 

And still wasn`t picked until FDB was injured

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

We've been run as a shambles for years, have a training ground that's 3 decades out of date, probably one of the worst-form teams out of all the teams in this league if you look at results over the last 3 years and have a pitch that's probably one of the less good ones at this level.

 

What on earth are you basing the statement in bold on? Historical massiveness? Counts for nothing.

 

Bet Sunderland fans have been saying similar to you and all too... how long have they been down here?

I think it’s all relative isn’t it. The training ground is dated but probably still adequate vs other teams at this level. And does it make a huge difference to performances I’m not sure it would. 
 

As for the pitch, it’s in a bad state but ironically the home form is fine it’s the away form that’s suspect.

 

Sunderland have been down here 4 years now. Having watched ‘Sunderland til I die’ on Netflix I think they have a budget problem, pretty sure they aren’t spending as much as we are. 
 

I’m basing it mainly on fan base size, historical performance and most importantly the budget and how much we spend on wages. If Chansiri hadn’t backed the manager this season I’d have a different opinion but he has.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

8 minutes ago, Screen Door Slams said:

And still wasn`t picked until FDB was injured

 

Because he was being managed back to fitness after a serious injury.

 

He talked about being in pain and only being in a good place since the turn of the year.

 

Thank God Moore managed him carefully, rather than throwing him straight back in and risking another long-term injury, as we've seen so many times in our recent past.

Edited April 13, 2022 by areNOTwhatTHEYseem

[torryowl]

1 hour ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

 

 

I think we’ve under achieved. Sheffield is the 4th largest city in England, we have a history of finishing in the top flight (our average position in each decade between 1892 and 2000 was within the top flight except the 70s) and we’ve been served up with rubbish for 20 years.

 

 

Takes more than playing in a big city to be a big club ......our glory days were pre WW2 since then think 44  of the 77 years as been spent  in the 2nd & 3rd tiers...since the heady days pre war we are club that yo yos up & down with more downs than ups .

[WorrallOwl17]

I voted to sack him in this poll, and if we don't get promoted i'd still vote to sack him. September to December was pathetic, too many draws and dropped points against dross of the league. Morecambe away, Shrewsbury home and away, the run of 4 draws against Lincoln, Cambridge, Wimbledon and Cheltenham. Gillingham at home, the Sunderland embarrassment away, the last minute defeat at Oxford, and more recently the ******** poor performance at Lincoln away followed up by Accy at home and Gillingham away. There's been too many substandard performances, yes since January we've picked up a lot thanks to his recruitment, just hope the damage wasn't done early in the season and leaves us chasing a bit now. People who voted to sack him at Christmas in my opinion were spot on to do so, and i'd stick by that if he fails to get this squad of players out of this division. 

[Pieman]

There was hysteria to get Paul Cook. Plenty wanting Paul Warne. Alex Neil generally gets a response at a new club, before falling off and losing fan support due to the turgid nature of his style. He is getting a turn. The one man getting results is Ryan Lowe, but I still believe he will get a chance here.

 

Moore is the right man for us. He built this squad, he has a pattern of play and he has created a strong dressing room bond, confirmed by the umpteenth player this weekend, Harlee Dean. We can do this. On our day and against the best teams, we have proven we can deliver in this league. We have many fit players now who have only played 20 or so games - that will make a difference when 1% is the difference between promotion or not. 
 

No one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes, including Moore. Changing managers has failed us for four years. For the pure reason of variety, let’s stick with him and build in increments instead of complete clear aaaarrrhhhtttt and boooom.