Sheffield Wednesday - Reality of life after relegation

[scilly owl]

A good video, a lot theorising and historical comparisons… and why not, it doesn’t hurt to draw comparisons with the past.

I agree with many of the responders who suggest that just because it happened in the past it doesn’t mean that we should expect or accept that it will happen in the present.

In my opinion, for what it’s worth, there is a danger of the past repeating itself ( languishing in the third tier for a few seasons) unless Chansiri grasps the nettle and changes the manager. I am not that bothered whether Darren Moore is a nice guy or not, I’m sure that he is, but I really don’t believe that Wednesday will prosper under his stewardship.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

4 hours ago, Tony Pulis said:

Yeah 

 

Carlos - played attractive brand of football and got us two top 6 finishes

Jos - Promotion specialist in Germany

Bruce - Promotion specialist in England

Monk - was successful with Birmingham, and got two top half finishes with Middlesbrough and Leeds

Pulis - Survival specialist in England

Moore - On brink of promotion with Doncaster from league below (clearly overachieving)

 

Whatever you can say about Chansiri, I think there was always a level of sense with the appointments. Most of them were not the right one, but there was always some logic.

 

I don't believe any of them are bad managers, it's just that our club under Chansiri isn't set up for success. We make decent managers look poor.

[parajack]

2 hours ago, edinburghowl said:

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of hearing and reading nonsense like this. Another one of the loser brigade in our fanbase.
 

In the 2nd part of the video for the most recent promotion it forgets to mention Dave Jones, without whom we wouldn’t have gone up, but the worst part is the pathetic acceptance of mediocrity which sadly runs through our club and fanbase and has done for far too long.
 

Why should we consolidate? Why wait?
 

We are a club of losers, it is completely engrained into the club, we settle for absolute rubbish and this absolutely has to change.
 

We need to demand more, to create a win at all costs and winning expectation, or we are doomed to being poo as a football club ad-infinitum.

 

Big clubs that are relegated don’t act or think like this and we shouldn’t either.
 

Newcastle when relegated from the Prem have gone straight up twice, their fans would accept nothing else, Man City did the same in League 1, my Scottish team Hearts have been relegated/demoted twice in my lifetime and they’ve won the Championship at a canter both times the season after because nothing else was acceptable.
 

Promotion and winning is the absolute minimum standard to clubs that think like this. One of those occasions for Hearts was by over 20 points ahead of local rivals Hibs and a free spending Rangers. Nothing else mattered. The fans and club demanded it.
 

Unachievable and unrealistic expectations to bounce back? Because it hasn’t been done before? Bullshit.
 

FFS even Hull, Rotherham and Barnsley have bounced straight back to the Championship

We’ve got the biggest wage budget in the division, some of the best fans, and the manager has been backed to get out of a poor league.

 

I’d like to think that we still see ourselves as a big club for this division and in the English Football League, and especially in the THIRD ******** TIER OF ENGLISH FOOTBALL. Aiming for promotion being the goal and nothing else is acceptable. That is how it should be.
 

I’ve been watching Wednesday since 85 and I want to see and hear that being said around the club, by the fans too, that nothing else is acceptable mantra. Quite why we accept losing to Shrewsbury, drawing with Gillingham at home, and building for next season as acceptable in the 3rd Division I do not know. That would never have crossed my mind when I started watching Wednesday.

Why should it now?

Hearts my second team too,out of respect to Andy my friend and room mate from Germany(BAOR) who sadly passed lasy Year.....so thats two things we have in common.

Totally share your view,sick of mediocrity,and frustrated.

[parajack]

19 minutes ago, scilly owl said:

A good video, a lot theorising and historical comparisons… and why not, it doesn’t hurt to draw comparisons with the past.

I agree with many of the responders who suggest that just because it happened in the past it doesn’t mean that we should expect or accept that it will happen in the present.

In my opinion, for what it’s worth, there is a danger of the past repeating itself ( languishing in the third tier for a few seasons) unless Chansiri grasps the nettle and changes the manager. I am not that bothered whether Darren Moore is a nice guy or not, I’m sure that he is, but I really don’t believe that Wednesday will prosper under his stewardship.

I don't care.....nice or not, that's personal stuff,i want him to be an effective football manager,and sadly results wise,and entertainment wise,he hasn't in my view.

If as  fear we drift away,even from a chance of a play off place,and the Chairman doesn't replace him,than all we as fans will have to look forward to next season,is more of the same.

If DM is replaced it wont be because of unrest on Owlstalk,or even the wider fan/supporter base.

It will be because he hasn't produced results as a manager...

[The Dukeries Owl]

3 hours ago, new zealand owl said:

I think you make some good points and we all know the bottom line is the club is not run properly, run the club properly and fan apathy goes away.  We haven't produced a high class premier league player in god knows how long. We also haven't had a manager poached by a bigger club in god knows how long.  So if we don't have good players or good coaches then the fans don't see a good product.  We have every right to turn our back on it all until the club delivers a professional, sustainable and successful strategy. 

 

Currently in the UK and this is the first time in multiple trips back where I haven't given the club a penny, partly due to COVID but my attitude is whats the point? I usually put some money into the club shop but even that is run poorly like the rest of the club. Everything is just "meh" and I'm accepting of that.

 

"We also haven't had a manager poached by a bigger club in god knows how long."

 

I take it you were busy when Steve Bruce went to Newcastle?

[Guest Andy W]

6 hours ago, Manwë said:

Aim low, lower expectations, "consolidate and rebuild".  If we are to look at history as he has in the video, the The rebuild will be so shoddy that we'll be relegated back down again a few years later anyway.  So let's discuss how we should have a few years expecting nothing rather than actually trying to get straight back up.

 

Rotherham and Wycombe, in first and third position respectively, are not having a season or two of stabilisation, of a rebuild of some mumbo jumbo to excuse a midtable position.  They are going out to win games and seek promotion like all sporting people do, they want to be the best at what they do.

 

I've said before, fans of Wednesday culturally accept failure that is normal and nothing is wrong at all with it. In sport, this attitude is not competitive and people will walk all over you. If other relegatees go straight back up, that's ok.  We can't aim for that, we need a rebuild, and then a wee bit of consolidation before we try and get promoted, that's because we are Wednesday.  Turner, Irvine, Moore.  What do these have in common?  They were all poor managers.  You don't have to hire poor managers first in order to hire a good manager later.  There's nothing stopping us hiring the good manager without hiring the poor manager.  Ah but we are Wednesday, we need to fail before we can attempt anything else.

 

We are losers, we are such losers that our own fans (fanatics), are fanatical accepters of defeat.

Agree...SWFC are serial losers and I fear this will continue...making your point that we expect failure.

If we aim low, I would bet we miss and go lower

I have zero faith or confidence in the club, ownership, management or our shocking bunch of players

IMO

[room0035]

1 hour ago, Chilli said:

Why is it strange - the very things you are advocating for SWFC are the very things the two managers above have been able to do.

 

Warne was appointed as manager in 2016; Ainsworth in 2012 - how many managers have we had in that time period?

 

I'm not a Moore apologist; I'm as fed up with our current style of play as everyone else, but if we continue to have a continual turnover of managers how can we ever build that stability that others on this thread have advocated - it's a Catch 22 situation.

But having the wrong manager is just as bad as changing managers every 5 minutes.

 

had we a competent league one manager with this group of players we would not be sat in mid table 12 points off the top 2.

 

both Rotherham and Wycombe play to their strengths, they don't play a style of play it formations for players, they have not got, when they loan players they bring them in and play them in their favoured formation.

 

Rotherham sign 5 players and 2 loans but we're not afraid to sell a good player when they got a good offer for him.

 

Wycombe signed 14 players in the summer bringing good experience players and players with league one experience they didn't waste any money bringing in expensive premier league loans. They also did not change their style of play for these players they sign players who could play there direct brand of football.

[new zealand owl]

15 minutes ago, The Dukeries Owl said:

 

"We also haven't had a manager poached by a bigger club in god knows how long."

 

I take it you were busy when Steve Bruce went to Newcastle?

Yes but it wasn't based on the job he did for us was it? Did we improve Bruce as a manager? 

[Manwë]

7 hours ago, Tony Pulis said:

Yeah 

 

Carlos - played attractive brand of football and got us two top 6 finishes

Jos - Promotion specialist in Germany

Bruce - Promotion specialist in England

Monk - was successful with Birmingham, and got two top half finishes with Middlesbrough and Leeds

Pulis - Survival specialist in England

Moore - On brink of promotion with Doncaster from league below (clearly overachieving)

 

Whatever you can say about Chansiri, I think there was always a level of sense with the appointments. Most of them were not the right one, but there was always some logic.

Exhibit A, revision of history. 

 

Moore on the brink of promotion? Happy to stand corrected but I believe he left them outside of the playoffs (never mind the autos) in eighth place.

 

Monk had got "top half" finishes, amazing.  Success at Birmingham?  He avoided relegation (not his fault Brum were down there).

 

Jos a "promotion specialist".  Three promotions a decade ago in a league not equivalent to the Championship, and out of work for a few years when we snapped him up.

 

Bruce, a genuine manager, made genuine progress.  Pulis, a manager hired not for success, but to avoid failure.  A failure of an appointment because all else had failed.  He failed.

 

And with that list of managers who you are claiming are actually good managers and logical appointments,  we are an entire division lower than when we started.   All of those managers were hired in the Championship.  We are now in League One.   That's Chansiri Logic.

 

Can't beat Accrington?  Well, Windass is injured so we'll wait 8 weeks and a quarter of the season until we get him back and expect anything.  Luongo suspended?  Well, can't expect Wednesday to win in that period.  

 

Culturally acceptance of Failure.  It's ingrained.  Any failure, there's a good reason and that reason means we don't have to look too deep into the problems.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Tony Pulis said:

Yeah 

 

Carlos - played attractive brand of football and got us two top 6 finishes

Jos - Promotion specialist in Germany

Bruce - Promotion specialist in England

Monk - was successful with Birmingham, and got two top half finishes with Middlesbrough and Leeds

Pulis - Survival specialist in England

Moore - On brink of promotion with Doncaster from league below (clearly overachieving)

 

Whatever you can say about Chansiri, I think there was always a level of sense with the appointments. Most of them were not the right one, but there was always some logic.

Lol Monk wasn’t successful anywhere, he didn’t make the play offs with Leeds and didn’t make it to Xmas in his season at Boro. Was lower mid table at Birmingham 

 

And Moore wasn’t anywhere near promotion, Donny flirted with top 6 then were already falling away when he left 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, room0035 said:

But having the wrong manager is just as bad as changing managers every 5 minutes.

 

had we a competent league one manager with this group of players we would not be sat in mid table 12 points off the top 2.

 

both Rotherham and Wycombe play to their strengths, they don't play a style of play it formations for players, they have not got, when they loan players they bring them in and play them in their favoured formation.

 

Rotherham sign 5 players and 2 loans but we're not afraid to sell a good player when they got a good offer for him.

 

Wycombe signed 14 players in the summer bringing good experience players and players with league one experience they didn't waste any money bringing in expensive premier league loans. They also did not change their style of play for these players they sign players who could play there direct brand of football.

Agree with this. Some people point to the Ferguson and Wenger model as if that’s the best way, giving a manager lots of time. If anything Wenger held Arsenal back for his last 10 years and they slipped well behind the other top sides by the time he left.

 

Other sides change the manager if it’s not working. Eventually you get one who fits well and they progress. I’d rather we changed managers every 6 months until we find one that wins and acceptable number of games, then stick with them 

[Chilli]

4 hours ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

Think it is slightly inevitable that Wednesday fans will be less patient with the manager than Rotherham and Wycombe if they are all in League 1.

 

 

Yes I agree, it's more than slightly inevitable, but my answer was to some of the points that Room 0035 was making in his post e.g. 

' We have a scatter gun approach to recruitment'

'The tactics and formations do not fit the team of players we have and instead of playing to our strengths, we change to try and match the teams we are playing.'

'we as a club are very short sighted' etc, etc

 

Yet he found it strange that Rotherham and Wycombe were in the top 3!!!!  My point being, that by having longer standing managers, it has allowed them to develop a style of play (admittedly with lower expectations and therefore pressure from the respective fanbases), and pick players within their financial means to play in the system, over a period of time, not 6 months or 12 months etc.   We have had, if you include Lee Bullen and Neil Thompson in their different temporary stints, about 8/9 different managers in post just whilst Warne has been the manager at Rotherham!!  What other outcome than we currently have would you expect? 

[mcmigo]

37 minutes ago, Kevin Pressmans Pen said:

Lol Monk wasn’t successful anywhere, he didn’t make the play offs with Leeds and didn’t make it to Xmas in his season at Boro. Was lower mid table at Birmingham 

 

And Moore wasn’t anywhere near promotion, Donny flirted with top 6 then were already falling away when he left 

Monk was the perfect manager for us given he had just kept a team with a points deduction and financial chaos in the league (Brum) -ie the exact thing we were facing.

[83owl]

1 hour ago, Manwë said:

Exhibit A, revision of history. 

 

Moore on the brink of promotion? Happy to stand corrected but I believe he left them outside of the playoffs (never mind the autos) in eighth place.

 

Monk had got "top half" finishes, amazing.  Success at Birmingham?  He avoided relegation (not his fault Brum were down there).

 

Jos a "promotion specialist".  Three promotions a decade ago in a league not equivalent to the Championship, and out of work for a few years when we snapped him up.

 

Bruce, a genuine manager, made genuine progress.  Pulis, a manager hired not for success, but to avoid failure.  A failure of an appointment because all else had failed.  He failed.

 

And with that list of managers who you are claiming are actually good managers and logical appointments,  we are an entire division lower than when we started.   All of those managers were hired in the Championship.  We are now in League One.   That's Chansiri Logic.

 

Can't beat Accrington?  Well, Windass is injured so we'll wait 8 weeks and a quarter of the season until we get him back and expect anything.  Luongo suspended?  Well, can't expect Wednesday to win in that period.  

 

Culturally acceptance of Failure.  It's ingrained.  Any failure, there's a good reason and that reason means we don't have to look too deep into the problems.

What “genuine progress” did we make under Bruce?

[Chilli]

4 hours ago, room0035 said:

But having the wrong manager is just as bad as changing managers every 5 minutes.

 

had we a competent league one manager with this group of players we would not be sat in mid table 12 points off the top 2.

 

both Rotherham and Wycombe play to their strengths, they don't play a style of play it formations for players, they have not got, when they loan players they bring them in and play them in their favoured formation.

 

Rotherham sign 5 players and 2 loans but we're not afraid to sell a good player when they got a good offer for him.

 

Wycombe signed 14 players in the summer bringing good experience players and players with league one experience they didn't waste any money bringing in expensive premier league loans. They also did not change their style of play for these players they sign players who could play there direct brand of football.

  If only it were that simple!!

 

There have been plenty on here praising each and every manager appointment as being 'competent' (as well as plenty who have said they weren't), so who are all of these competent managers that we should have appointed but haven't?

[Pieman]

Some excellent posts in this thread.

 

Without piling into the debate, I believe we will make the playoff positions and I believe we can win the playoff. We have been improving, albeit the set back of the last 2 games has been tough to take and the team will be better in the second half of the season than the first. Equally, when it comes to the big games, I think we have the experience and individual players to win them and therefore, get through the playoff process.

 

So, lots of ifs and buts, maybes and shudda’s. We can still go up this season and that is what I am focussed on. 

[Inspector Lestrade]

Warne has taken Rotherham down twice.  He would not be allowed that luxury at Hillsborough

[SallyCinnamon]

The club is a mess recovering from multiple embargoes, a points deduction, selling its stadium, not paying players and staff on time, with average players on inflated salaries, terrible handling of youth prospects. The list goes on. 
 

To expect an instant bounce after all the poo this club has been put through over the last few years, I’m sorry, it is fantasy. I genuinely believe the club was on the brink of existence last season and I still have lingering fears over our financial situation now.

 

And the man who is responsible for all of the above is still at the helm and has full ownership of the club. 
 

We have created anything but a winning and successful culture over the last few years. Sadly it will take time to create one and move on. 
 

Will we do that though? Is Moore the man to do that? I don’t know. Others have tried before him and failed. I firmly believe the club won’t move forward until the chairman sells up and let’s someone else have a go. He’s burnt too many bridges here and made too many mistakes to turn it round and make the club successful under his leadership. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by SallyCinnamon

[Inspector Lestrade]

10 hours ago, Tony Pulis said:

Yeah 

 

Carlos - played attractive brand of football and got us two top 6 finishes

Jos - Promotion specialist in Germany

Bruce - Promotion specialist in England

Monk - was successful with Birmingham, and got two top half finishes with Middlesbrough and Leeds

Pulis - Survival specialist in England

Moore - On brink of promotion with Doncaster from league below (clearly overachieving)

 

Whatever you can say about Chansiri, I think there was always a level of sense with the appointments. Most of them were not the right one, but there was always some logic.

 

Not holding a grudge are you?

[Inspector Lestrade]

2 hours ago, Manwë said:

Exhibit A, revision of history. 

 

Moore on the brink of promotion? Happy to stand corrected but I believe he left them outside of the playoffs (never mind the autos) in eighth place.

 

Monk had got "top half" finishes, amazing.  Success at Birmingham?  He avoided relegation (not his fault Brum were down there).

 

Jos a "promotion specialist".  Three promotions a decade ago in a league not equivalent to the Championship, and out of work for a few years when we snapped him up.

 

Bruce, a genuine manager, made genuine progress.  Pulis, a manager hired not for success, but to avoid failure.  A failure of an appointment because all else had failed.  He failed.

 

And with that list of managers who you are claiming are actually good managers and logical appointments,  we are an entire division lower than when we started.   All of those managers were hired in the Championship.  We are now in League One.   That's Chansiri Logic.

 

Can't beat Accrington?  Well, Windass is injured so we'll wait 8 weeks and a quarter of the season until we get him back and expect anything.  Luongo suspended?  Well, can't expect Wednesday to win in that period.  

 

Culturally acceptance of Failure.  It's ingrained.  Any failure, there's a good reason and that reason means we don't have to look too deep into the problems.

 

 

State your case and name a manager who would achieve promotion success with Wednesday