Sheffield Wednesday - Reality of life after relegation

[@owlstalk]

 

 

 

Sheffield Wednesday - Reality of life after relegation

Watch video here   Sheffield Wednesday - Reality of life after relegation

[Manwë]

Aim low, lower expectations, "consolidate and rebuild".  If we are to look at history as he has in the video, the The rebuild will be so shoddy that we'll be relegated back down again a few years later anyway.  So let's discuss how we should have a few years expecting nothing rather than actually trying to get straight back up.

 

Rotherham and Wycombe, in first and third position respectively, are not having a season or two of stabilisation, of a rebuild of some mumbo jumbo to excuse a midtable position.  They are going out to win games and seek promotion like all sporting people do, they want to be the best at what they do.

 

I've said before, fans of Wednesday culturally accept failure that is normal and nothing is wrong at all with it. In sport, this attitude is not competitive and people will walk all over you. If other relegatees go straight back up, that's ok.  We can't aim for that, we need a rebuild, and then a wee bit of consolidation before we try and get promoted, that's because we are Wednesday.  Turner, Irvine, Moore.  What do these have in common?  They were all poor managers.  You don't have to hire poor managers first in order to hire a good manager later.  There's nothing stopping us hiring the good manager without hiring the poor manager.  Ah but we are Wednesday, we need to fail before we can attempt anything else.

 

We are losers, we are such losers that our own fans (fanatics), are fanatical accepters of defeat.

[Inspector Lestrade]

6 minutes ago, Manwë said:

Aim low, lower expectations, "consolidate and rebuild".  If we are to look at history as he has in the video, the The rebuild will be so shoddy that we'll be relegated back down again a few years later anyway.  So let's discuss how we should have a few years expecting nothing rather than actually trying to get straight back up.

 

Rotherham and Wycombe, in first and third position respectively, are not having a season or two of stabilisation, of a rebuild of some mumbo jumbo to excuse a midtable position.  They are going out to win games and seek promotion like all sporting people do, they want to be the best at what they do.

 

I've said before, fans of Wednesday culturally accept failure that is normal and nothing is wrong at all with it. In sport, this attitude is not competitive and people will walk all over you. If other relegatees go straight back up, that's ok.  We can't aim for that, we need a rebuild, and then a wee bit of consolidation before we try and get promoted, that's because we are Wednesday.  Turner, Irvine, Moore.  What do these have in common?  They were all poor managers.  You don't have to hire poor managers first in order to hire a good manager later.  There's nothing stopping us hiring the good manager without hiring the poor manager.  Ah but we are Wednesday, we need to fail before we can attempt anything else.

 

We are losers, we are such losers that our own fans (fanatics), are fanatical accepters of defeat.

 

How do you mean we are fanatical acceptors of defeat?   We give a manager ten games and if we aren't challenging then we want him out.  The pressure on the managers must be pretty intense.  

 

Who would you have us hire as a good manager?  Most managers DC has signed on paper looked decent appointments and were welcomed by the fans if not with open arms but an grudengly understanding of why DC signed them. 

 

You come across as saying that you hire a good manager and you go up, if football were only that simple.

 

Who should our next manager be?  

 

 

[Tony Pulis]

1 hour ago, Inspector Lestrade said:

 

How do you mean we are fanatical acceptors of defeat?   We give a manager ten games and if we aren't challenging then we want him out.  The pressure on the managers must be pretty intense.  

 

Who would you have us hire as a good manager?  Most managers DC has signed on paper looked decent appointments and were welcomed by the fans if not with open arms but an grudengly understanding of why DC signed them. 

 

You come across as saying that you hire a good manager and you go up, if football were only that simple.

 

Who should our next manager be?  

 

 

Yeah 

 

Carlos - played attractive brand of football and got us two top 6 finishes

Jos - Promotion specialist in Germany

Bruce - Promotion specialist in England

Monk - was successful with Birmingham, and got two top half finishes with Middlesbrough and Leeds

Pulis - Survival specialist in England

Moore - On brink of promotion with Doncaster from league below (clearly overachieving)

 

Whatever you can say about Chansiri, I think there was always a level of sense with the appointments. Most of them were not the right one, but there was always some logic.

[edinburghowl]

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of hearing and reading nonsense like this. Another one of the loser brigade in our fanbase.
 

In the 2nd part of the video for the most recent promotion it forgets to mention Dave Jones, without whom we wouldn’t have gone up, but the worst part is the pathetic acceptance of mediocrity which sadly runs through our club and fanbase and has done for far too long.
 

Why should we consolidate? Why wait?
 

We are a club of losers, it is completely engrained into the club, we settle for absolute rubbish and this absolutely has to change.
 

We need to demand more, to create a win at all costs and winning expectation, or we are doomed to being poo as a football club ad-infinitum.

 

Big clubs that are relegated don’t act or think like this and we shouldn’t either.
 

Newcastle when relegated from the Prem have gone straight up twice, their fans would accept nothing else, Man City did the same in League 1, my Scottish team Hearts have been relegated/demoted twice in my lifetime and they’ve won the Championship at a canter both times the season after because nothing else was acceptable.
 

Promotion and winning is the absolute minimum standard to clubs that think like this. One of those occasions for Hearts was by over 20 points ahead of local rivals Hibs and a free spending Rangers. Nothing else mattered. The fans and club demanded it.
 

Unachievable and unrealistic expectations to bounce back? Because it hasn’t been done before? Bullshit.
 

FFS even Hull, Rotherham and Barnsley have bounced straight back to the Championship

We’ve got the biggest wage budget in the division, some of the best fans, and the manager has been backed to get out of a poor league.

 

I’d like to think that we still see ourselves as a big club for this division and in the English Football League, and especially in the THIRD ******** TIER OF ENGLISH FOOTBALL. Aiming for promotion being the goal and nothing else is acceptable. That is how it should be.
 

I’ve been watching Wednesday since 85 and I want to see and hear that being said around the club, by the fans too, that nothing else is acceptable mantra. Quite why we accept losing to Shrewsbury, drawing with Gillingham at home, and building for next season as acceptable in the 3rd Division I do not know. That would never have crossed my mind when I started watching Wednesday.

Why should it now?

[Errol Flashman]

 Wycombe and Rotherham  went into pre-season training with more than 7 pros on the books and their players getting paid as far as I know.

 

Two well run,  stable clubs. 

 

Last thing you could ever call Wednesday is a stable club.

[new zealand owl]

3 hours ago, Manwë said:

Aim low, lower expectations, "consolidate and rebuild".  If we are to look at history as he has in the video, the The rebuild will be so shoddy that we'll be relegated back down again a few years later anyway.  So let's discuss how we should have a few years expecting nothing rather than actually trying to get straight back up.

 

Rotherham and Wycombe, in first and third position respectively, are not having a season or two of stabilisation, of a rebuild of some mumbo jumbo to excuse a midtable position.  They are going out to win games and seek promotion like all sporting people do, they want to be the best at what they do.

 

I've said before, fans of Wednesday culturally accept failure that is normal and nothing is wrong at all with it. In sport, this attitude is not competitive and people will walk all over you. If other relegatees go straight back up, that's ok.  We can't aim for that, we need a rebuild, and then a wee bit of consolidation before we try and get promoted, that's because we are Wednesday.  Turner, Irvine, Moore.  What do these have in common?  They were all poor managers.  You don't have to hire poor managers first in order to hire a good manager later.  There's nothing stopping us hiring the good manager without hiring the poor manager.  Ah but we are Wednesday, we need to fail before we can attempt anything else.

 

We are losers, we are such losers that our own fans (fanatics), are fanatical accepters of defeat.

I think you make some good points and we all know the bottom line is the club is not run properly, run the club properly and fan apathy goes away.  We haven't produced a high class premier league player in god knows how long. We also haven't had a manager poached by a bigger club in god knows how long.  So if we don't have good players or good coaches then the fans don't see a good product.  We have every right to turn our back on it all until the club delivers a professional, sustainable and successful strategy. 

 

Currently in the UK and this is the first time in multiple trips back where I haven't given the club a penny, partly due to COVID but my attitude is whats the point? I usually put some money into the club shop but even that is run poorly like the rest of the club. Everything is just "meh" and I'm accepting of that.

[matthefish2002]

7 minutes ago, Errol Flashman said:

 Wycombe and Rotherham  went into pre-season training with more than 7 pros on the books and their players getting paid as far as I know.

 

Two well run,  stable clubs. 

 

Last thing you could ever call Wednesday is a stable club.

 

Exactly this.

Unstable clubs are hardly ever successful.

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

Yep.

 

• It's not just Wednesday, either.

 

As I posted earlier in the season, it might be worth looking at how recently-relegated teams have tended to fare in League One.

 

Taking the past decade as a sample, then...

 

 

We can see that...

 

10 out of 30 teams (33.3%) were promoted (9 automatically, 1 via the playoffs).

4 out of 30 (13.3%) finished in the top 6 but weren’t promoted.

6 out of 30 (20%) finished outside the playoffs but in the top half.

6 out of 30 (20%) finished in the bottom half but avoided relegation.

4 out of 30 (13.3%) were relegated to League Two.

The average position of a relegated team the following season is between 9th and 10th.

 

...all of which suggests that it's not particularly straightforward to bounce back at the first time of asking, and teams in our position are twice as likely to miss out on promotion as they are to achieve it.

 

Some traditionally big clubs with a track record of playing in the top two tiers have struggled to quickly adapt to the demands of the third tier, with the likes of Sheffield United, who spent the 18 seasons prior to relegation playing in the Championship or above; PNE (11 years); Portsmouth (20 years); Coventry (48 years); Sunderland (30 years); and Ipswich Town (62 years), having all failed to win promotion at the first attempt.

 

I've seen some fans suggesting we should be doing better because Rotherham and Wycombe are currently in the top three, but the context of those clubs is very different to ours. They're both traditionally lower-league clubs for whom playing in the Championship represents the very peak of their achievements, so although relegation last season would have been disappointing, it's hardly the end of the world. Whereas Wednesday dropping to the third tier is the literally us matching the lowest ebb we've ever been at as a club.

 

They were also both among the five most settled squads in our division going into this season, whereas ours was among the bottom six most settled.

 

In short: they're both well-run, stable clubs for whom relegation was far from a disaster; we're a crisis club who've well and truly crash landed in this division in a state of chaos.

[Quickly Kevin]

16 minutes ago, edinburghowl said:

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of hearing and reading nonsense like this. Another one of the loser brigade in our fanbase.
 

In the 2nd part of the video for the most recent promotion it forgets to mention Dave Jones, without whom we wouldn’t have gone up, but the worst part is the pathetic acceptance of mediocrity which sadly runs through our club and fanbase and has done for far too long.
 

Why should we consolidate? Why wait?
 

We are a club of losers, it is completely engrained into the club, we settle for absolute rubbish and this absolutely has to change.
 

We need to demand more, to create a win at all costs and winning expectation, or we are doomed to being poo as a football club ad-infinitum.

 

Big clubs that are relegated don’t act or think like this and we shouldn’t either.
 

Newcastle when relegated from the Prem have gone straight up twice, their fans would accept nothing else, Man City did the same in League 1, my Scottish team Hearts have been relegated/demoted twice in my lifetime and they’ve won the Championship at a canter both times the season after because nothing else was acceptable.
 

Promotion and winning is the absolute minimum standard to clubs that think like this. One of those occasions for Hearts was by over 20 points ahead of local rivals Hibs and a free spending Rangers. Nothing else mattered. The fans and club demanded it.
 

Unachievable and unrealistic expectations to bounce back? Because it hasn’t been done before? Bullshit.
 

FFS even Hull, Rotherham and Barnsley have bounced straight back to the Championship

We’ve got the biggest wage budget in the division, some of the best fans, and the manager has been backed to get out of a poor league.

 

I’d like to think that we still see ourselves as a big club for this division and in the English Football League, and especially in the THIRD ******** TIER OF ENGLISH FOOTBALL. Aiming for promotion being the goal and nothing else is acceptable. That is how it should be.
 

I’ve been watching Wednesday since 85 and I want to see and hear that being said around the club, by the fans too, that nothing else is acceptable mantra. Quite why we accept losing to Shrewsbury, drawing with Gillingham at home, and building for next season as acceptable in the 3rd Division I do not know. That would never have crossed my mind when I started watching Wednesday.

Why should it now?

 

Absolutely nailed it.

 

The expectant have a crap first season upon relegation to league one is almost seen as an aim by some.

 

Three relegations to the third tier in 20 years is woeful.

[WalthamOwl]

It’s poo

[adelphi1867]

3 hours ago, Manwë said:

Aim low, lower expectations, "consolidate and rebuild".  If we are to look at history as he has in the video, the The rebuild will be so shoddy that we'll be relegated back down again a few years later anyway.  So let's discuss how we should have a few years expecting nothing rather than actually trying to get straight back up.

 

Rotherham and Wycombe, in first and third position respectively, are not having a season or two of stabilisation, of a rebuild of some mumbo jumbo to excuse a midtable position.  They are going out to win games and seek promotion like all sporting people do, they want to be the best at what they do.

 

I've said before, fans of Wednesday culturally accept failure that is normal and nothing is wrong at all with it. In sport, this attitude is not competitive and people will walk all over you. If other relegatees go straight back up, that's ok.  We can't aim for that, we need a rebuild, and then a wee bit of consolidation before we try and get promoted, that's because we are Wednesday.  Turner, Irvine, Moore.  What do these have in common?  They were all poor managers.  You don't have to hire poor managers first in order to hire a good manager later.  There's nothing stopping us hiring the good manager without hiring the poor manager.  Ah but we are Wednesday, we need to fail before we can attempt anything else.

 

We are losers, we are such losers that our own fans (fanatics), are fanatical accepters of defeat.

Rotherham and Wycombe have had 5 years of steady progress on and off the pitch, they have built up good squads over that period of players that have not cost a fortune.

WE, on the other hand, have had 25 years of trying to buy success, or stave off relegation, not just the last 6, and failed miserably on both counts.

Wednesday fans demand Instant success and will have no patience with anyone who try's to build some thing for the long term.

[adelphi1867]

10 minutes ago, Quickly Kevin said:

 

Absolutely nailed it.

 

The expectant have a crap first season upon relegation to league one is almost seen as an aim by some.

 

Three relegations to the third tier in 20 years is woeful.

Because we do not plan anything, every season for the last 30 has been abysmal because we only seem to see as far as the end of our Noses and have a recruitment policy of signing players for the sake of it, without thinking what is best for the Squad/Team.

[Errol Flashman]

21 minutes ago, areNOTwhatTHEYseem said:

We're a crisis club who've well and truly crash landed in this division in a state of chaos.

 

Bingo 

[room0035]

Strange then that the two teams who got relegated with us, that have a team assembled and paid on a fraction of what we over pay our players currently sit 1st and 3rd in the league with at least 12 points more than us.

 

The reason we are struggling is the same reason we have struggled for the last 4 seasons. We have the wrong people in the wrong positions at the club. We focus on over aged older players when we should be building a young youthful energetic team.

 

We have a scatter gun approach to recruitment, we needing 6 or 7 good signing in the summer mixed in with our own youth players instead we signed 14 players and 8 or 9 of them have added little to the squad.

 

The tactics and formations do not fit the team of players we have and instead of playing to our strengths, we change to try and match the teams we are playing.

 

Then we moan about having no money, but show no conviction in progressing in the cups, the cup games do not affect the league, until they get to the later stages, a cup run to the 3rd or 4th round of the fa cup could have generated in excess of £1m for the club financing maybe 3 or 4 players for the season.

 

But we as a club are very short sighted, the club bring forward season tickets for a money grab using the fans to pay for consistent failing at the club, but then what happens next season when the money is gone. But DC never thinks we could get more by selling a player or two and reinvesting in a younger prospect and well and pocketing the difference.

 

No so many things have led to where we are and without real sustained change we will continue to slide further and further down the leagues.

[Kopparberg]

Great video. Great YouTube channel. 

[@owlstalk]

20 minutes ago, Kopparberg said:

Great video. Great YouTube channel. 

 

This 

 

[Chilli]

40 minutes ago, room0035 said:

Strange then that the two teams who got relegated with us, that have a team assembled and paid on a fraction of what we over pay our players currently sit 1st and 3rd in the league with at least 12 points more than us.

 

The reason we are struggling is the same reason we have struggled for the last 4 seasons. We have the wrong people in the wrong positions at the club. We focus on over aged older players when we should be building a young youthful energetic team.

 

We have a scatter gun approach to recruitment, we needing 6 or 7 good signing in the summer mixed in with our own youth players instead we signed 14 players and 8 or 9 of them have added little to the squad.

 

The tactics and formations do not fit the team of players we have and instead of playing to our strengths, we change to try and match the teams we are playing.

 

Then we moan about having no money, but show no conviction in progressing in the cups, the cup games do not affect the league, until they get to the later stages, a cup run to the 3rd or 4th round of the fa cup could have generated in excess of £1m for the club financing maybe 3 or 4 players for the season.

 

But we as a club are very short sighted, the club bring forward season tickets for a money grab using the fans to pay for consistent failing at the club, but then what happens next season when the money is gone. But DC never thinks we could get more by selling a player or two and reinvesting in a younger prospect and well and pocketing the difference.

 

No so many things have led to where we are and without real sustained change we will continue to slide further and further down the leagues.

Why is it strange - the very things you are advocating for SWFC are the very things the two managers above have been able to do.

 

Warne was appointed as manager in 2016; Ainsworth in 2012 - how many managers have we had in that time period?

 

I'm not a Moore apologist; I'm as fed up with our current style of play as everyone else, but if we continue to have a continual turnover of managers how can we ever build that stability that others on this thread have advocated - it's a Catch 22 situation.

[matthefish2002]

46 minutes ago, Chilli said:

Why is it strange - the very things you are advocating for SWFC are the very things the two managers above have been able to do.

 

Warne was appointed as manager in 2016; Ainsworth in 2012 - how many managers have we had in that time period?

 

I'm not a Moore apologist; I'm as fed up with our current style of play as everyone else, but if we continue to have a continual turnover of managers how can we ever build that stability that others on this thread have advocated - it's a Catch 22 situation.

 

Think it is slightly inevitable that Wednesday fans will be less patient with the manager than Rotherham and Wycombe if they are all in League 1.

 

 

[bobness]

Some people have a long way of saying "Chansiri out"...