Moore, the good the bad and the ugly

[areNOTwhatTHEYseem]

22 minutes ago, Memoryman said:

 

 

That's interesting. Every week we were guaranteed to play 4-2-3-1 with the playing out from the back style, but it was a lottery as to which player would play in which position. Reece James, our LB ended up playing every position bar goalkeeper last season. It sounds like he's still picking teams to counter the opposition rather than playing to his team's strengths, but has evolved this to mix up style of play/formation too. Horses for courses was the phrase used constantly when he was here. I can see that working if you keep the same system as it did here, but imagine it's a struggle if you have no set style of play either. 

 

We started the season playing 4-2-3-1, and it certainly seemed like his recruitment was geared towards playing that way.

 

But then our best two results of the season so far have come playing 4-4-2 away to Rotherham and Wigan respectively, and then he's started using 3-5-2 in recent weeks, with predictably mediocre results.

 

Last weekend, he played a back three consisting of one centre-back, a right-back, and a left-midfielder. We had a centre-back sat on the bench.

 

Nobody seems to know whether they're coming or going, to be honest 

[Manwë]

3 hours ago, Memoryman said:

Donny fan in peace, I've been talking about Moore a lot with my Wednesdayite mate lately who suggested I post some insights on here (hi Ross!).

 

I say all of this as someone who liked DM when he was here and still does, but accepts he played a big part in the mess we're currently in. He is a complicated guy with a lot of quirks. Those quirks are his biggest strength but also his biggest weakness imo.

 

I see a lot of you complaining about him insisting on playing out from the back and playing players out of position. This will not change. Ever. Moore is very stubborn and does things his way, and this is his way. If you're expecting this to change anytime soon, it won't, no matter what results you're getting. He played some bizarre teams when he was here, with midfielders in defence, full backs up front, you name it. The formation and system will never change but the players' roles within that system will depending on who you're playing. Weirdly, more often than not that approach seemed to work here - we were the best team in the league in terms of PPG before his head got turned towards S6. There's method to the madness, I could never figure it out but it worked here.

 

Which brings me to the next thing. DM had real issues in the transfer market. He undoubtedly has great pull in the game and attracted players here who we had no right getting - Jacob Ramsey who's now a regular for Villa, Josh Sims who'd played in the PL before joining us, Matt Smith who's a full Wales international with a few dozen caps, and so on. But as I said, he's stubborn. We sold John Marquis ( off the back of a 20+ goal season) and Moore told us we had a "pound for pound" better player lined up, only for him to change his mind at the last minute. He refused to sign anyone and brought in 2 free agents from non league after the window closed who were about what you'd expect. He signed Ed Williams from the Conference North and never played him. He signed Omar Bogle who is useless, but he's a Christian mate of Darren's so he got a contract we're still bogged down by. We brought in a talent ID manager to help him out, which is when we really started to build a great squad - he'd identify the talent and Moore would use his pull to sign them. Giving DM free reign to sign who he wants gives mixed results. You'll get some quality but you'll also get a load of his mates from church. You have the budget to carry that though, we don't - and we're paying the price for it now.

 

The playing out from the back thing. I like this style of play and think it can work at this level. We were generally solid at the back so would be patient, pull teams out of shape, and generally score when they tired after 75-80 mins of chasing us around. We'd go one down fairly often for a side high up the league but you could usually count on us to turn it round late on. When he got us ticking after his first season, we were ruthless under Moore, often needing one or two quick breaks to score and shut out the opposition. It's never exactly exciting to watch but it can be very effective and if he gets it working for you you'll walk this league with the players you have. On the downside, while it's a good plan A he has no plan B. We came unstuck when fit, organised teams got in our faces and pressed high. We had no answer to it, and because DM will never change things up, it's easy to get found out. Again, this is something that won't change. It also took him a season to really get it working. I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of your finances but can you afford a season in mid table L1 to work out the kinks in his system? That's the question I'd be asking if I was Chansiri.

 

There are a few negative bits that came out after he'd left. How much of this is sour grapes from within the club I'm not sure, but the club hierarchy are generally very professional and don't slag off managers when they leave which makes me think it's true. Grant McCann left in similar circumstances to DM and had no such stories leak out, for comparison. The main one that shocked me was that Moore had no interest in working with our youth team, to the point he wouldn't even leave his office to watch them train. He's clearly very talented at developing other team's players on loan, but never looked to promote from within. There were also issues with his timekeeping and general laid back attitude to training. Apparently he would regularly turn up late and would never really impose any sort of discipline in training. This led to a big divide between Moore's men who'd throw it off and the players who'd been here a bit longer. The man must be a man management genius because he held it together while he was here, but after he left that divided dressing room caused us to implode, and we're still picking up the pieces from that now.

 

Oh, and his interviews. Save yourself 10 mins, go wash the pots or walk the dog or summat. You'll never learn anything from them, but I guess you know that already.

 

TL;DR Moore is a complex character who's set in his ways and will never change. You'll think he's a mad genius when you're winning but you'll think he's lost the plot when you're not. The things you guys want to change maybe worth persevering with, maybe not, but he will persevere with them whether you like it or not. Is that enough for a club like yours?

No offense, but there's no way you're having him back.  No amount of compo will see us accept and have him return to you.

 

He's ours now, and we're keeping him 

[Orlando_Trustful]

Great info. More concerns with him after reading that. 

[Pughies Jockstrap]

Excellent post Memoryman. Pretty much sums  up what a delivery driver to our place who's a Donny fan tells me virtually every day.  The problem with Mr Moore so far is he doesn't seem to be good enough to be stubborn and if he persists with his stubbornness even in the face of evidence that it isn't working he will find himself unemployed and worse still unemployable.

[debram]

That's all to complicated for him to be a success at hillsborough, just confirming what we've encountered so far, need to get rid imo.

[SiJ]

Like the fact that he signs people if they go to the same church as him.

 

We've got Ned Bloody Flanders in charge!

[debram]

6 minutes ago, Pughies Jockstrap said:

Excellent post Memoryman. Pretty much sums  up what a delivery driver to our place who's a Donny fan tells me virtually every day.  The problem with Mr Moore so far is he doesn't seem to be good enough to be stubborn and if he persists with his stubbornness even in the face of evidence that it isn't working he will find himself unemployed and worse still unemployable.

Wish dc would read the post.

[Pughies Jockstrap]

Just now, debram said:

Wish dc would read the post.

Me and thee both mate.

[CourteenerOwl]

Moore win rate of 29% is all anyone needs to know about his methods.

 

Does not surprise me about the laid back attitude to training and time keeping with the amount of goals we concede late on and sluggish first 45 mins.

 

It is very annoying that we have gone through an array of stubborn managers set in their ways. Is it too much to ask for a more forward thinking and flexible manager.

[SiJ]

Another issue is I'm not sure I'd trust some of our more senior players with a manager who is relaxed and let's them get away with it. 

 

[NorthernOwl]

1 hour ago, SiJ said:

Great post and interesting stuff. Certainly provides some context to what is going off and it is reassuring to know that we are not being OTT when we are questioning starting line ups, formations etc. 

 

Have to say it probably concerns more than it inspires much confidence. 

 

Who knows, perhaps it will all "click" at some point, but I'm struggling to see him getting the time afforded if he persists with this approach. 

 

I suppose there is some method behind the madness. I honestly had reached the conclusion that he was just picking random teams because he hasn't a clue what he's doing. Perhaps that isn't quite right. Still...

 

I've always thought that what he's trying to do is fairly obvious.

 

Changing tactics each game with the intention of exploiting the specific weaknesses of the team we are playing.

 

Nothing wrong with this in principle but it's a pretty tough thing to achieve.

 

Gaining consistency, getting players to understand ever changing roles etc is something that will take a lot of time with this approach.

 

Its notable that the op states it took a full season before Moore started having success.

 

Whether we as a club have the patience to wait things out and give Moore that time and space remains to be seen. 

[CourteenerOwl]

Just now, NorthernOwl said:

 

I've always thought that what he's trying to do is fairly obvious.

 

Changing tactics each game with the intention of exploiting the specific weaknesses of the team we are playing.

 

Nothing wrong with this in principle but it's a pretty tough thing to achieve.

 

Gaining consistency, getting players to understand ever changing roles etc is something that will take a lot of time with this approach.

 

Its notable that the op states it took a full season before Moore started having success.

 

Whether we as a club have the patience to wait things out and give Moore that time and space remains to be seen. 

Passing out from the back under Moore just involves GK passing to CB, who panics and passes back to GK to launch or they give away.

 

You would think if he wants to play this way he would have identified last season that Iorfa and Dunkley are not able to play with the ball at their feet in this manner and go about signing CBs that could. 

 

There is no composure on the ball from any of the team. He has his detractors but the one player in our team who can be trusted with the ball is Bannan. 

 

Darren Moore SWFC - is literally instead of GK just kicking it, they pass to Che Dunkley or Iorfa to kick it. We deserve a lot better!

[NorthernOwl]

6 minutes ago, CourteenerOwl said:

Passing out from the back under Moore just involves GK passing to CB, who panics and passes back to GK to launch or they give away.

 

You would think if he wants to play this way he would have identified last season that Iorfa and Dunkley are not able to play with the ball at their feet in this manner and go about signing CBs that could. 

 

There is no composure on the ball from any of the team. He has his detractors but the one player in our team who can be trusted with the ball is Bannan. 

 

Darren Moore SWFC - is literally instead of GK just kicking it, they pass to Che Dunkley or Iorfa to kick it. We deserve a lot better!

 

Presumably why Dunkly wasn't picked in the previous game and we ended up playing a wide player as a CB.

 

I suspect a ball playing CB will be one of the signings that Moore is eyeing up for January.

[CourteenerOwl]

1 minute ago, NorthernOwl said:

 

Presumably why Dunkly wasn't picked in the previous game and we ended up playing a wide player as a CB.

 

I suspect a ball playing CB will be one of the signings that Moore is eyeing up for January.

Moore had last season and pre season to work out what we all know with regards to Dunkley and Iorfa. The fact he signed 14 players and only Gibson was a CB is baffling, as well as all those wingers just to play full backs out wide.

 

All clear evidence he does not have a clue what he is doing.

 

29% win ratio. People on OT love a stat well what about that one  

 

 

[sherlyegg]

The church thing worries me.

I can't stop swearing while watching...kin ell i'v had it.

[otekalu]

Good post. Thanks for taking the time Memoryman.

[Manwë]

46 minutes ago, SiJ said:

Like the fact that he signs people if they go to the same church as him.

 

We've got Ned Bloody Flanders in charge!

For while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. - 1 Timothy 4:8

 

[SiJ]

Just now, Manwë said:

For while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. - 1 Timothy 4:8

 

Indeedly doodly.

[SiJ]

Just now, SiJ said:

Indeedly doodly.

Sorry should be:

 

Ermdeedly Doodly.

[asteener1867]

Fair enough post...More or less what we have seen.

I take on board memory mans liking of playing out from the back...Not seen much of Donny, but we simply haven't got the players to do it.

The over analysing of opponents...?..yea thats bloody obvious.

Moore spends too much time worrying about their strengths and our weaknesses....when the sqads tell you...it really should be the other way around in most cases.

Until DM gets on board on whats blindingly obvious to ordinary football fans...not analysts....pundits or so called experts...If its clear to me...they should have been on it weeks ago