Football club management

[Ellis Rimmer]

Does anyone ever ponder the importance of this role? I struggle to believe that half the time the clubs don't just pick someone on their face fitting rather than football managerial talent. 

 

Mourinho sacked by Spurs. They're willing to pay this guy millions, which suggests they find it an extremely important role. Therefore why do the leave that role for the rest of the season to an absolute novice? Surely there is an out of work manager that would be better suited to a care taker role.

 

 

Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea-all recently have novice managers (Ole, Arteta, Lampard). Before getting top jobs their combined managerial experience was Cardiff, Molde and Derby. Nowhere near the level they're going to work at. Do these clubs not think it's important to have top managers? 

 

Why in England do we seem to have managers proving themselves through the leagues but the top clubs seem to completely overlook what has been achieved by these managers. People like Dyche, Bielsa, Rogers, Nuno seem to constantly achieve at their club's respective level but seems ridiculous to talk about these managers going to title challenging clubs. It seems silly that Dyche would get the Arsenal job for example however Arsenal are actually happy to go for somebody without experience of being a manager. 

 

Further to this, as some managers seem to benefit from their face fitting, they can actually perform poorly and still expect good jobs, Howe gets Bournemouth relegated however he feels he is above the championship and leaves them, Parker gets Fulham relegated and rather than him hoping Fulham don't sack him he has the audacity to be apparently considering where his own future applies.

 

I wonder if we just seemed to promote good managers like they do in other countries whether we would have won more club honours as a nation. In Italy, Spain and Germany you often seem to have managers at top clubs who have worked their way up. In England we seem to get irrational ideas in our heads "oh Arteta was an intelligent but hardworking player on the pitch-that means he will be good at managment" etc 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

Does anyone ever ponder the importance of this role? I struggle to believe that half the time the clubs don't just pick someone on their face fitting rather than football managerial talent. 

 

Mourinho sacked by Spurs. They're willing to pay this guy millions, which suggests they find it an extremely important role. Therefore why do the leave that role for the rest of the season to an absolute novice? Surely there is an out of work manager that would be better suited to a care taker role.

 

 

Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea-all recently have novice managers (Ole, Arteta, Lampard). Before getting top jobs their combined managerial experience was Cardiff, Molde and Derby. Nowhere near the level they're going to work at. Do these clubs not think it's important to have top managers? 

 

Why in England do we seem to have managers proving themselves through the leagues but the top clubs seem to completely overlook what has been achieved by these managers. People like Dyche, Bielsa, Rogers, Nuno seem to constantly achieve at their club's respective level but seems ridiculous to talk about these managers going to title challenging clubs. It seems silly that Dyche would get the Arsenal job for example however Arsenal are actually happy to go for somebody without experience of being a manager. 

 

Further to this, as some managers seem to benefit from their face fitting, they can actually perform poorly and still expect good jobs, Howe gets Bournemouth relegated however he feels he is above the championship and leaves them, Parker gets Fulham relegated and rather than him hoping Fulham don't sack him he has the audacity to be apparently considering where his own future applies.

 

I wonder if we just seemed to promote good managers like they do in other countries whether we would have won more club honours as a nation. In Italy, Spain and Germany you often seem to have managers at top clubs who have worked their way up. In England we seem to get irrational ideas in our heads "oh Arteta was an intelligent but hardworking player on the pitch-that means he will be good at managment" etc 

 

Some flaws in a few of your points.

 

You reference Rogers as it being ridiculous to talk about him managing a title-challenging club - having previously been the manager of Liverpool.

 

You say other countries promote good young managers who have worked their way up - what evidence is there of this? How much experience did Pep have before he got one of the biggest jobs in world football? What about Zidane? Simeone got the Altetico job on the back of very little managerial success and will have been helped in doing so by his previous time as a player at the club. 

 

Lampard got the job at Chelsea purely as a result of their transfer ban and them having to use more of the academy players. He had worked with them previously, took a couple to Derby to get some experience and having done a decent job at Pride Park he got the stop gap job at Chelsea. It worked for them. 

[Ellis Rimmer]

5 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Some flaws in a few of your points.

 

You reference Rogers as it being ridiculous to talk about him managing a title-challenging club - having previously been the manager of Liverpool.

 

You say other countries promote good young managers who have worked their way up - what evidence is there of this? How much experience did Pep have before he got one of the biggest jobs in world football? What about Zidane? Simeone got the Altetico job on the back of very little managerial success and will have been helped in doing so by his previous time as a player at the club. 

 

Lampard got the job at Chelsea purely as a result of their transfer ban and them having to use more of the academy players. He had worked with them previously, took a couple to Derby to get some experience and having done a decent job at Pride Park he got the stop gap job at Chelsea. It worked for them. 

So you don’t think the ethos is different in this country? 3/6 and recently 4/6 of the richest clubs hiring novices for one of their most important roles in their club?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

So you don’t think the ethos is different in this country? 3/6 and recently 4/6 of the richest clubs hiring novices for one of their most important roles in their club?

 

I've just stated that the 3 biggest clubs in Spain had novice managers at the height of their recent successes. Two of them still do and the one that has an experienced manager in charge is the one making the most tactical errors this season. 

[Ellis Rimmer]

4 hours ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I've just stated that the 3 biggest clubs in Spain had novice managers at the height of their recent successes. Two of them still do and the one that has an experienced manager in charge is the one making the most tactical errors this season. 

Simeone had about 5 clubs before, true about Madrid and they've gone to pot now they don't simply have better players than everyone else, Guardiola already working at Barca so they knew his qualities 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

Simeone had about 5 clubs before, true about Madrid and they've gone to pot now they don't simply have better players than everyone else, Guardiola already working at Barca so they knew his qualities 

 

 

Same as Lampard at Chelsea with Pep then?

 

Simeone had little managerial success that would warrant being employed by the 3rd biggest club in Spain and had half a season of management in European football under his belt. 

 

Zidane has been as successful as any other manager in Champions League history. 

[Ellis Rimmer]

2 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Same as Lampard at Chelsea with Pep then?

 

Simeone had little managerial success that would warrant being employed by the 3rd biggest club in Spain and had half a season of management in European football under his belt. 

 

Zidane has been as successful as any other manager in Champions League history. 

Guardiola was Barca 'b' manager hence how I mean known- they had seen him manage 

 

Simeone 5 clubs, saved an Italian club from relegation, had big club experience at River Plate, makes sense

 

Do you not see a different ethos compared to UK in the rest of Europe?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

Guardiola was Barca 'b' manager hence how I mean known- they had seen him manage 

 

Simeone 5 clubs, saved an Italian club from relegation, had big club experience at River Plate, makes sense

 

Do you not see a different ethos compared to UK in the rest of Europe?

 

Not really.

How does managing Barca B give you the experience you were referring to any more than Lampard's experience was exaclty what Chelsea needed at the time? They had a transfer ban and needed someone to steady the ship - it worked. Every other season Chelsea have gone for someone with a track record, a name. 

 

Barcelona went from Frank Rijkaard to the B team manager. Imagine if Liverpool, Man Utd or Chelsea appointed the academy manager. 

 

Simeoone 'Saved an Italian club from relegation'. Glad you can read Wiki - half a season in Europe is not ideal for managing the 3rd biggest club in a big league. If Liverpool were to appoint the current manager of River PLate next season would you see that as a logical choice? 

 

Your OP said - I wonder if we just seemed to promote good managers like they do in other countries whether we would have won more club honours as a nation. In Italy, Spain and Germany

The most successful manager in Champions League history is a managerial novice who is in charge of one of the biggest clubs in world football.

 

 

[Ellis Rimmer]

2 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Not really.

How does managing Barca B give you the experience you were referring to any more than Lampard's experience was exaclty what Chelsea needed at the time? They had a transfer ban and needed someone to steady the ship - it worked. Every other season Chelsea have gone for someone with a track record, a name. 

 

Barcelona went from Frank Rijkaard to the B team manager. Imagine if Liverpool, Man Utd or Chelsea appointed the academy manager. 

 

Simeoone 'Saved an Italian club from relegation'. Glad you can read Wiki - half a season in Europe is not ideal for managing the 3rd biggest club in a big league. If Liverpool were to appoint the current manager of River PLate next season would you see that as a logical choice? 

 

Your OP said - I wonder if we just seemed to promote good managers like they do in other countries whether we would have won more club honours as a nation. In Italy, Spain and Germany

The most successful manager in Champions League history is a managerial novice who is in charge of one of the biggest clubs in world football.

 

 

Which novices randomly got big jobs in Italy and Germany? Pirlo...look how that's turned out  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

Which novices randomly got big jobs in Italy and Germany? Pirlo...look how that's turned out  

 

Was it you that mentioned Spain in your OP?

Do English clubs keep appointing novices or is it just Man Utd, - who appointed someone who had previously worked in their academy and had more experience than Pep did when Barcelona appointed him. Chelsea as a one-off due to circumstances and Arsenal, who appointed the assistant of one of the most successful managers in the modern era? 

[Ellis Rimmer]

6 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Was it you that mentioned Spain in your OP?

Do English clubs keep appointing novices or is it just Man Utd, - who appointed someone who had previously worked in their academy and had more experience than Pep did when Barcelona appointed him. Chelsea as a one-off due to circumstances and Arsenal, who appointed the assistant of one of the most successful managers in the modern era? 

Look at it this way, the last manager promoted solely because of how they were doing in this country top a top side was David Moyes to Man Utd. Lampard got job on who he is. Our top clubs overlook people who are doing a good job in this country. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

Look at it this way, the last manager promoted solely because of how they were doing in this country top a top side was David Moyes to Man Utd. Lampard got job on who he is. Our top clubs overlook people who are doing a good job in this country. 

 

Same in Spain. The big clubs either appoint someone connected to the club or look abroad. 

Italy is a little different, hasn't brought them any more success on a European scale as you suggest could be the case if English clubs did it though. 

 

Bayern are the only club with sustained success in Germany and in Europe and they have looked abroad often in recent times. Their last manager hadn't managed in club football for over a decade - imagine if one of our top clubs chose to appoint Southgate's assistant. Their previous manager, Kovac, had done well in Germany - he lasted 1 year at Bayern.

[Ellis Rimmer]

6 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Same in Spain. The big clubs either appoint someone connected to the club or look abroad. 

Italy is a little different, hasn't brought them any more success on a European scale as you suggest could be the case if English clubs did it though. 

 

Bayern are the only club with sustained success in Germany and in Europe and they have looked abroad often in recent times. Their last manager hadn't managed in club football for over a decade - imagine if one of our top clubs chose to appoint Southgate's assistant. Their previous manager, Kovac, had done well in Germany - he lasted 1 year at Bayern.

ok fair enough, so what I don't get is why clubs are so happy to get novices. It's like they don't think the role is actually that important 

[Guest]

Just now, Ellis Rimmer said:

ok fair enough, so what I don't get is why clubs are so happy to get novices. It's like they don't think the role is actually that important 

 

On your OP, I agree completely about Spurs. What a strange move at a strange time Spurs main complaint in recent seasons is that they get close but no cigar to winning a trophy. So they appoint a manager who has become a bit like marmite recently but has a good track record of winning trophies. They reach a cup final and sack the manager with a record of something like 12 wins from 14 finals and out someone with no professional experience in charge. Utterly bizarre. 

 

On a wider scale I think some clubs see what happened with Pep at Barcelona and want to repeat that so go for a connection. Certainly seems the case with Arsenal. They sacked Emery far too quickly, he has a good record and the problems with them go far deeper than the manager. 

Man Utd tried to appoint an up and coming British manager, it didn't work, they then turned to experience, with mixed results. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Ellis Rimmer said:

ok fair enough, so what I don't get is why clubs are so happy to get novices. It's like they don't think the role is actually that important 

 

In terms of the Spanish clubs it seems as much about having a real connection at the heart of the club and being able to manage the ego's and personalities as much as it does having great tactical nous. 

Zidane isn't a great tactician but is a winner on the biggest stage and at the biggest clubs. Their multi-millionaires might be more inclined to listen to him than they would do to Sean Dyche. 

[Leeds U from sheff]

San Francisco 49ers have a stake in Leeds. 

 

Just about 3.5 years ago in a board meeting, 49ers top man's advice to Leeds owner was get the best possible manager you can afford... Its the most important decision. 

 

We took it on board and sacked heckinbottom to employ bielsa. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Leeds U from sheff

[matthefish2002]

Think finding the right manager is more an art then a science.

Find it funny that managers like Roy Hodgson and David Moyes who have bags of experience were mocked a few years ago.

But now they reputations are high again.

 

Sam Alladyce is seen as a bit of a dinosaur but his methods 15 years ago were well ahead off his time and people just go on his gruff personality.

Pulis is seen as one of worst managerial appointments we have ever had but at Stoke he is a club legend.

[eightbelow]

9 hours ago, matthefish2002 said:

Think finding the right manager is more an art then a science.

Find it funny that managers like Roy Hodgson and David Moyes who have bags of experience were mocked a few years ago.

But now they reputations are high again.

 

Sam Alladyce is seen as a bit of a dinosaur but his methods 15 years ago were well ahead off his time and people just go on his gruff personality.

Pulis is seen as one of worst managerial appointments we have ever had but at Stoke he is a club legend.

I think if feels that way because people got it wrong so often and rarely give the coach a chance. I believe in the Championship the average tenure is around 8 months, if that is the case it means one bad run of results ultimately gets a coach fired. The result is never in the hands of the coach and this just blows my mind.

[matthefish2002]

6 minutes ago, eightbelow said:

I think if feels that way because people got it wrong so often and rarely give the coach a chance. I believe in the Championship the average tenure is around 8 months, if that is the case it means one bad run of results ultimately gets a coach fired. The result is never in the hands of the coach and this just blows my mind.

 

 

You see it on Owlstalk when you get people discussing average points over 10 games each manager has.

10 Games!!! 

Hardly any manager is more than 3 games away from a crisis in modern football.

This comes from too much hype and money in the game.

 

 

[eightbelow]

I remember that we used to say that every manager is 6 games away from the sack, lose 6 on the spin and you get sacked, particularly at the start of the season when it looks worse in the table. To really see what a coach can do you have to give them time and also support them so that they can get their own staff and players in. This takes a brave approach and its sorely lacking in the upper echelons of football clubs.