Fan Ownership of Football Clubs

[Guest whowantstoberich]

1 hour ago, owlinexile said:

 

It's not a business plan.

 

It's a plan to sustainably manage a community asset so that future generations can continue to enjoy it.

 

Which is how football clubs should be run.

 

 

 

 

Yes but it wouldn’t be an asset if it didn’t make money it would become history as it wouldn’t survive 

[Rogers]

Here’s an idea..

 

Every club in the land is valued on a predefined criteria (playing squad, assets, commercial activity, fans base, tradition, league position). 
 

The valuation will be undertaken by 2 independent parties.

 

A club value is defined and for every 1% - a 1000 (or another number) shares is made available based on the value. 
 

16% is automatically given to the club official supporters club. 

 

The rest of the shares are made available in 5%, 10%, 15% packages. 51% cannot be owned by any one person or company. 
 

The shares can be traded on a new football stock exchange, the value of the shares get go and down based on performance based on the original criteria. 

 
Each club has 5 voted in representatives, commercial experts, ex players, business leaders, Football people. Each shareholder needs to assign their shares to a representative, as their spokesperson. 
 

The 5 develop a strategy that is voted upon by the shareholders. From playing squad strategy, stadium refurbs, commercial activity, etc. 

[Yellowbelly]

Let’s use Newcastle as an example.

Newcastle United currently valued by owner at 300mill. If fans wanted to purchase 51% then 20K of them would have to put in 7.5K EACH. That 20 thousand people then having a unified voice in the future of their club.

But how can you get 20 thousand people to agree? Majority rule? But then you’ve paid 7 grand and still not getting your way. What about the bloke whose stumped up for the other 49%? He’s just spent 150 mill for a business he doesn’t have full control over AND the fans would still expect him to put his hand in his pocket for signings, wages etc. Would you in his position?

 

Nice idea - don’t see how it could work.

[ChapSmurf]

On 21/04/2021 at 10:29, vulva said:

Why would anyone with any money or ambition buy anything where they only have 49% of the shares. 

 

I don't know. Why don't you send an email to Audi, Allianz or Adidas and ask them why they are minority owners (c. 25% between them) of Bayern Munich.

 

Or the 25% owners of Borussia Dortmud.

 

Or Red Bull - the 49% owners of RB Leipzig.

 

Or in fact any of the maximum 49% stakeholders of any German football club.

[Rogers]

24 minutes ago, ChapSmurf said:

 

I don't know. Why don't you send an email to Audi, Allianz or Adidas and ask them why they are minority owners (c. 25% between them) of Bayern Munich.

 

Or the 25% owners of Borussia Dortmud.

 

Or Red Bull - the 49% owners of RB Leipzig.

 

Or in fact any of the maximum 49% stakeholders of any German football club.

I think people are confusing companies (Audi, VW, BMW, Adidas, etc) wanting to see a return and companies wanting to be associated with a local club for the good of the club and community.
 

By association they get sponsorship and maybe fans might be swayed to buy their products; but I think this not the reason they invest. 
 

Imagine thousands of factory or office workers working for a company that supports your club.
 

You’d feel good about that wouldn’t you? 

[owlinexile]

1 hour ago, whowantstoberich said:

Yes but it wouldn’t be an asset if it didn’t make money it would become history as it wouldn’t survive 

 

I am not talking about a financial asset.  I am talking about a community asset.  A focal point and source of pride for the local community.  

 

The job of a football owner should be more like a trustee, making sure the business side of the club brings in enough money to finance the football activities in a sustainable way.  It shouldn't be allowed to be a casino for chancers or a plaything for bored scions of successful tuna fishermen.

 

That doesn't mean clubs need to be two-bit outfits.  The big firms behind, say, Borussia Dortmund are happy to have a minority stake because they are not there trying to line their pockets.  They understand the goodwill and PR generated by being a 'champion' for their city and nation and being involved with a beloved national institution.

 

 

 

[Utah Owl]

If we look t the German model, fan ownership does not mean that the fans actually run the club (which in our case granted would be a disaster). What happens is that the clubs appoint a board of directors, DOF whatever they see fit as sanctioned by the fans. They then run the club and are accountable to the shareholders (the fans).

 

Everybody saying it would be a disaster, why? It's worked rather well in Germany so why not here?

[vulva]

8 hours ago, ChapSmurf said:

 

I don't know. Why don't you send an email to Audi, Allianz or Adidas and ask them why they are minority owners (c. 25% between them) of Bayern Munich.

 

Or the 25% owners of Borussia Dortmud.

 

Or Red Bull - the 49% owners of RB Leipzig.

 

Or in fact any of the maximum 49% stakeholders of any German football club.

You’re not getting it. They aren’t investing in the same way that it’s done here, and for the same reasons. And German football isn’t that competitive. Bayern are about to win their 9th consecutive title.  
 

The German model is often lauded as the best around. To bring that in here it would involve DC selling 51% of the club to some lads in Crookes Club who have just done a meat raffle. I’m sure he would consider it if the meat raffle had raised £150m. Oh, and by the way DC, you don’t make the decisions anymore. 
 

Good luck with all that. 

[Highbury Owl]

I'd love it if we could find a way for fans to run the club. 

 

But my priority at the moment would be for some clever people to run the club.

[Noleafclover]

I think that it's more important for a fan group shares (not necessarily majority) so they have a say in how the club is run. Newcastle are trying to do the same thing, it just puts pressure on the owner rather than that group having to finance....which is too unrealistic.

 

I'm probably wrong like hahaha what do I know.

Seems to work for the likes of Bayern and Dortmund.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

22 minutes ago, vulva said:

You’re not getting it. They aren’t investing in the same way that it’s done here, and for the same reasons. And German football isn’t that competitive. Bayern are about to win their 9th consecutive title.  
 

The German model is often lauded as the best around. To bring that in here it would involve DC selling 51% of the club to some lads in Crookes Club who have just done a meat raffle. I’m sure he would consider it if the meat raffle had raised £150m. Oh, and by the way DC, you don’t make the decisions anymore. 
 

Good luck with all that. 

I won a leg of pork 

What's the problem?

[owlinexile]

2 hours ago, vulva said:

You’re not getting it. They aren’t investing in the same way that it’s done here, and for the same reasons. And German football isn’t that competitive. Bayern are about to win their 9th consecutive title.  
 

The German model is often lauded as the best around. To bring that in here it would involve DC selling 51% of the club to some lads in Crookes Club who have just done a meat raffle. I’m sure he would consider it if the meat raffle had raised £150m. Oh, and by the way DC, you don’t make the decisions anymore. 
 

Good luck with all that. 

 

Not selling.  Giving.  Because he is compelled to do so by law.

 

Of course he wouldn't like it.  But that's great.  Stopping people like Chansiri getting involved in football clubs is one of the main objectives, after all.

[Guest whowantstoberich]

3 minutes ago, owlinexile said:

 

Not selling.  Giving.  Because he is compelled to do so by law.

 

Of course he wouldn't like it.  But that's great.  Stopping people like Chansiri getting involved in football clubs is one of the main objectives, after all.

Ok so lets assume this was the case already. 

 

DC is currently funding millions a year in losses to keep us afloat. If the bill was split how would the fans find 51% of those losses? 

 

Germany is completely different to the UK in competitiveness and money. Yes this system might work in our non league but thats about it.

 

I like the idea of doing it for love, and gifting shares without any responsibility but this is the real world not a fairy tale.

 

 

 

 

[matthefish2002]

Fan ownership is fine in practice but I think we have gone too far down the road of billionaires and foreign investment group owners for it ever to become a reality.

Maybe some sort of representation at board level but you have to have the right person there. 
The person who is representing the fans on the board is also on a hiding to nothing, even people trying to represent the fans at the engagement meeting with the club gets slagged off.

 

Best we can hope for is someone who is experienced and runs the club sensibly and respects the heritage of the club. Something I dont think Chansiri does alt all.

[vulva]

25 minutes ago, owlinexile said:

 

Not selling.  Giving.  Because he is compelled to do so by law.

 

Of course he wouldn't like it.  But that's great.  Stopping people like Chansiri getting involved in football clubs is one of the main objectives, after all.

Can you walk me through the legal implications of forcing DC and other owners of giving up 51% of their shareholding. 
 

Would the 51% be comfortable inheriting 51% of the debt?
 

Has this been thought through?

[Gerinako]

100% for it

[Pastor Kidneys]

We've enough problems with one lunatic ... fancy dealing with another 15000

[S72 Owl]

Will never happen in England. Gone way past that now. Too much money involved.

[Daizan10]

I shared a petition to start the ball rolling on this to all the wednesday facebook groups last nigh . Only one person has responded. If you believe this then sign the damn petition. 

[ChapSmurf]

12 hours ago, Rogers said:

I think people are confusing companies (Audi, VW, BMW, Adidas, etc) wanting to see a return and companies wanting to be associated with a local club for the good of the club and community.
 

By association they get sponsorship and maybe fans might be swayed to buy their products; but I think this not the reason they invest. 
 

Imagine thousands of factory or office workers working for a company that supports your club.
 

You’d feel good about that wouldn’t you? 

 

All companies try to maximise their profits, be that through obvious or less obvious means. Of course, with the likes of the companies we've both mentioned, they do want to be associated for the good of the club and community, but also for the good of their own brand and for P.R. reasons. It's a win/win for both the club and the company.

 

4 hours ago, vulva said:

You’re not getting it. They aren’t investing in the same way that it’s done here, and for the same reasons. And German football isn’t that competitive. Bayern are about to win their 9th consecutive title.  
 

The German model is often lauded as the best around. To bring that in here it would involve DC selling 51% of the club to some lads in Crookes Club who have just done a meat raffle. I’m sure he would consider it if the meat raffle had raised £150m. Oh, and by the way DC, you don’t make the decisions anymore. 
 

Good luck with all that. 

 

I do get it, 100%. The reasons these companies are involved, in limited capacity, is due entirely to the model of German football, which in many ways has been created in an attempt to keep the football for the fans. It's in the Germans ethos and tradition to do this. That's not to say shareholders aren't involved with clubs or other rich tycoons (mainly Austrain).

 

As @Rogers said, it's about "wanting to be associated with a local club for the good of the club and community". I expanded on that in my comments above suggesting that these companies would be getting kickbacks financially and exposure through being associated with the clubs.

 

Could this work in the U.K? Yes, if we rewind the clocks back 30 years - and that's not to say the German model is antiquated. Now, it's very unlikely due to the massive sums of money the owners have shelled out to buy and support the clubs they own. Is it an ownership model to base our own game on? I really couldn't say. What works for German fans and German football may not work for the English or British equivalents.

 

What we certainly need is greater governance and controls within the game to stop breakaway's happening again. That just cannot be accepted or tollerated.