Groundhopping Owl Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 4 hours ago, vulva said: Why would anyone with any money or ambition buy anything where they only have 49% of the shares. There are plenty of German firms with money and ambition who are happy to be minority shareholders in clubs over there, e.g. Mercedes and Stuttgart or Audi and Bayern Munich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulva Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Groundhopping Owl said: There are plenty of German firms with money and ambition who are happy to be minority shareholders in clubs over there, e.g. Mercedes and Stuttgart or Audi and Bayern Munich. That’s probably dressed us as sponsorship rather than ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 33 minutes ago, Groundhopping Owl said: There are plenty of German firms with money and ambition who are happy to be minority shareholders in clubs over there, e.g. Mercedes and Stuttgart or Audi and Bayern Munich. Do they plough millions in to the clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkfieldowl14 Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 5 hours ago, Inspector Lestrade said: Are enough of us knowledgable enough to make a proper judgement on this matter? Might be better if someone could set out the arguments for and against. Great point there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groundhopping Owl Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 3 hours ago, Inspector Lestrade said: Do they plough millions in to the clubs? Yes, Daimler put more than €40m into Stuttgart for a 11.75% stake and that was when they were down in the second division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Lestrade Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Groundhopping Owl said: Yes, Daimler put more than €40m into Stuttgart for a 11.75% stake and that was when they were down in the second division. Maybe its something to investigate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulva Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 6 hours ago, Hornsby said: So how come German clubs attract biggest firms in world to buy less than half shares? Sponsorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulture_squadron Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 Enjoying reading these debates on here! Maybe someone can clear this up, but before Mandaric came in, wasn't the problem that we had too many minor shareholders and couldn't account for them all? We also had the co-op bank holding shares and we owed them money? I like the idea of some degree of fan ownership but whether we get that or what we have now it doesn't change the fact that you need good people in the boardroom. We've been a badly run club ever since I can remember. We need a combination of execs and technical/football people to sort this out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hornsby Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 10 hours ago, vulva said: Sponsorship. Shareholders too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwë Posted April 22, 2021 Author Share Posted April 22, 2021 10 hours ago, vulture_squadron said: We also had the co-op bank holding shares and we owed them money? I don't remember that, but I could be wrong. I'm a bit vague now, but I think the Board were something like 30% (Allen, Hulley, Culley all having around the 10-11% holding), with Wednesdayite having another 10%. The remainder were as you described, small holdings scattered around. That's entirely normal in business. A realistic business would have Wednesdayite on the Board, after all they are one of the largest shareholders, but the atmosphere was poisonous. 11 hours ago, vulture_squadron said: We've been a badly run club ever since I can remember. We need a combination of execs and technical/football people to sort this out. Agree with that. Allen, for his sins, was business-savvy. Wednesday were losing money but it wasn't much, and the debt was legacy debt from our fall from grace, and we kept afloat, were able to trade players in and out. But he wasn't a football man, that was clear to all. Why he got involved with Wednesday I'll never know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanzaroteowl Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 It really comes down to money. Where will the money come from to buy the marquee players? Who will dip in to their pocket to cover any losses? Nice idea but not in the 'real' football world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwë Posted April 22, 2021 Author Share Posted April 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, lanzaroteowl said: It really comes down to money. Where will the money come from to buy the marquee players? Who will dip in to their pocket to cover any losses? Nice idea but not in the 'real' football world. Money would be made available from the football club, which would operate on a sound financial footing. The real football world includes Germany, which has several top class clubs and players, and is good on the international scene, and the game is affordable to fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Manwë said: Money would be made available from the football club, which would operate on a sound financial footing. The real football world includes Germany, which has several top class clubs and players, and is good on the international scene, and the game is affordable to fans. Fan Ownership doesn't even work in Germany to the extent people will have you believe on here. https://gameofthepeople.com/2021/01/29/schalke-04-are-defining-what-crisis-really-means/ Socialist Ideals are great until you need to fund them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwë Posted April 22, 2021 Author Share Posted April 22, 2021 17 minutes ago, Prince said: Fan Ownership doesn't even work in Germany to the extent people will have you believe on here. https://gameofthepeople.com/2021/01/29/schalke-04-are-defining-what-crisis-really-means/ Socialist Ideals are great until you need to fund them. Read the article, but it's basically about being crap on the field, not about fan ownership as such. Revenue at around 10 times that of Wednesday, debt at more than Wednesday however although still around the same level as their revenue. 160000 members, 60000 attendances and tickets people can afford. Do you think they would be better off giving all that up to sign some players? Yes they have issues, that's competitive sport. Losing 16 games in a row will do that to anyone. It's not proved that fan ownership is a bad thing per se, just that a bad team will get relegated. Imagine 160000 Wednesday fans engaged directly with their club. Imagine 60000 gates. Imagine £20 tickets. Imagine our income being £200m a year. It'd be a dream. We have none of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 34 minutes ago, Manwë said: Read the article, but it's basically about being crap on the field, not about fan ownership as such. Revenue at around 10 times that of Wednesday, debt at more than Wednesday however although still around the same level as their revenue. 160000 members, 60000 attendances and tickets people can afford. Do you think they would be better off giving all that up to sign some players? Yes they have issues, that's competitive sport. Losing 16 games in a row will do that to anyone. It's not proved that fan ownership is a bad thing per se, just that a bad team will get relegated. Imagine 160000 Wednesday fans engaged directly with their club. Imagine 60000 gates. Imagine £20 tickets. Imagine our income being £200m a year. It'd be a dream. We have none of that. They spent big to try and be a force in Europe and it didn't pay off. Draw any comparisons here? Basically they did the same as us but for a different purpose and neither the big gates or the £20 tickets or even the £200m a Year could save them from the drop. https://www.dw.com/en/bundesliga-schalke-to-slash-spending-commit-to-coach-david-wagner/a-54013261 I am not saying I wouldn't be happy with that level of support or income but German Clubs as a whole are always held up a a paradigm of the ideal of fan ownership and it isn't always the case as this proves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aingarth Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Some slightly left brain views being expressed here. In very simple terms. Before the Charterhouse deal which Dave Richards did, the club was 100% owned by local supporters, families and businesses. These people put their own money into the club starting with the original shares in 1899 which enabled the club to buy and develop the Hillsborough site. There were subsequent share issues and a debenture issue where further local people and supporters put their hard earned cash into the club. When Mr Mandaric took over, 50% of the shares were still owned by local people/ supporters, 10% were owned by Wednesdayite who had them gifted, not purchased, because of issues with the end of the Charterhouse deal and 40% owned by Directors. In the years leading to the Mandaric takeover, this site and other media published quite horrible posts about the 50% local share owners and also the Directors. I said at the time, really be careful what you wish for. When Mandaric took over, the 50% and Wednesdayite gave their shares away. The Directors held theirs for a repayment deal which, as far as I know, has still not happened. So, would it work again now? Well as a family which invested in the club before and had to donate it all for nothing, there would need to be some safeguards. But the money and greed which has almost ruined English football means we have to pay even modest footballers millionaire wages. I think it is too late - I wouldn’t put any money in with the current ownership and management. They had my 3 year season ticket money, running to 2022 and haven’t the decency to contact me. I do think a detailed analysis of how the German system works would be worthwhile before the idea is dismissed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest whowantstoberich Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Yes if they buy 51% of the shares otherwise no. There should however be rules to protect clubs from owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest whowantstoberich Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 On 21/04/2021 at 13:02, owlinexile said: They wouldn't. Which is the whole point. You shouldn't be able to make money from owning a football club. Sounds a right good business plan that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TINGLE75 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Imagine if there were salary caps and every team on each league had a set amount they could spend. The competition would be immense. Obviously it won't happen because of pure greed by all involved at the top of the game, which has filtered down. Make the sport affordable, give it back to the fans. I can dream 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlinexile Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 11 minutes ago, whowantstoberich said: Sounds a right good business plan that It's not a business plan. It's a plan to sustainably manage a community asset so that future generations can continue to enjoy it. Which is how football clubs should be run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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