The European Superleague Plan highlights a problem at Sheffield Wednesday

[Animis]

To be sustainable you have to think about the next generations, and what the motivations are for them as fans, and what the clubs' motivations are. Clearly entertainment and money are hand in hand, and getting the right balance is important.

 

With the top 6 having totally redeveloped their infrastructures, and all have foreign owners with international aspirations, the old order is unsustainable.

 

I think the domestic cups will be significantly depleted in years to come. It wouldn't surprise me if the lower leagues become regionalise to create 'derbys' and interest. I imagine the UEFA competitions will grow in numbers, and top domestic leagues reduce in number accordingly, with entry restricted from 3 to say 2 and then maybe 1.

 

The top six clubs won't let the recent events lie - the international market is more important than a few thousand protesters - Man U proved this with the Glazers in 2004. All that protesting and moving to FC United for what - a growing international fan base that flies in for match day experience/weekend. For them it's not waiting in the rain for the footie special back to pond street.

[owl_83]

26 minutes ago, vulva said:

It’s boring here. Premier League grounds are full every week. Not boring there. 
 

Football isn’t about quality hot dogs, and the fan experience. Or at least that shouldn’t be the priority. The majority of football fans would stand on a grass bank in the rain if the team were top of the league. 

If you look at the forums of the big clubs, I think you will find that they are getting bored with it too. They are fed up of paying through the nose for tickets, merchandise, hot dogs, cola. They really are starting to care less and less. We are just seen as cash cows for clubs. And the money isn't being spent on improving the club, or shoring up clubs finances. It is all being spent on players.

 

If you speak to FC United fans, they are loving it. They are not being ripped off with overpriceed pies or drinks. They can stand with their mates and meet players after matches etc. I do think a revolution in football is coming.

 

My lad is 18 months old and will probably start to take him to matches when he is 5 or 6. It probably won't be to Wednesday, it will be to somewhere like Swallownest or Hallam FC.

[@owlstalk]

41 minutes ago, vulva said:

It boils down to the quality of the product on the pitch. Everything else thereafter falls into place. 

 

Thats not true anymore 

[Manwë]

I'm going to cry crocodile tears for the likes of Man Utd, Real Madrid feeling they don't have enough support.  They have true global reach and income from all over the globe, and I imagine that many youngsters in faraway places pick those two clubs especially to support, and will buy shirts, subscribe to services etc.

 

Other clubs, including Wednesday, less so, but we are obsessed with increasing revenue (rightly so in the circumstances), but it's at the expense of fans in general, and the motivation is purely to increase the wages for players.  All players have benefitted from the "rising tide lifts all boats" clause.   

 

I did fag packed maths a few months back.  Shearer when he joined Blackburn was on £3k a week.  This was a mind-boggling sum of money then.  With inflation taken into account, that'd be the equivalent of around £6.7k a week in 2021.  To put that in perspective, Cameron Dawson earns about 40% more than Shearer did when he was banging in goals for fun, consistently, at the highest level but domestically and internationally.  Happy to be corrected on all those figures, but that's a general overview of the state of play.

 

Young fans don't generate enough income to pay for those mediocre players to earn £10k+ a week, so we create means of getting money from children (their parents) in order to make the likes of Cameron Dawson millionaires. 

 

The rot in the game is from the top, but nothing can be done or will be done without true team efforts across the board from the EPL to League 2.  And that, is why the game won't progress on the matters of sustainability and finances.  Look at all the numpties who blame FFP for Chansiri's failings.  As far as some say, Chansiri should be able to spend what he wants, as much as he wants, when he wants.  Well, if he is to over-spend, it won't be in the form of subsidising ticket prices, or a pie, or invest in making the seats comfy.  Those things will remain top price for the fans.  The money will be spent on giving Cameron Dawson another few £k a week to keep a large squad intact.  And when Wednesday do that, some poo goalkeeper in another poo Championship club is likely to gets a wage boost.  The market has changed by inflating wages at one club, all clubs copy or get left-behind.

 

Next season there'll be more empty seats than seats with fans in.  And the model we have, like most clubs have, is to generate even more money from fewer fans.  A 10-20 year vision of getting fans immersed in the club doesn't pay Dawson's salary now.   We should be giving those seats away for £0. 

 

Apologies to Dawson, it wasn't personal, he was the first most crap player I could think of at Wednesday.

 

 

[@owlstalk]

37 minutes ago, vulva said:

It’s boring here. Premier League grounds are full every week. Not boring there. 
 

Football isn’t about quality hot dogs, and the fan experience. Or at least that shouldn’t be the priority. The majority of football fans would stand on a grass bank in the rain if the team were top of the league. 

 

Disagree 

 

The fans that have been lifelong fans might 

 

But where is the next generation?

 

Theyve been ignored, disregarded and now don’t exist 

 

 

[Guest Andy W]

43 minutes ago, T Hardy said:

Yep, and don’t forget us charging students a fiver more than United did for tickets. An easy way to win fans for life there, and so many students will have ended up picking United over us because it was a fiver less.

 

I think most of us follow Wednesday because we always have, we inherited it, it’s ingrained into us, but I can safely say in my lifetime, there’s probably been 4 years in total where I would say it has been fun. The rest of the time, it has been miserable and felt like a chore. Who wants that?

Nail on the head..its a chore. Apart from a handful of seasons, its not pleasurable and you always expect the worst from the club. No reason at all to think it will change in the future.

 

[kobayashi]

Is it an established fact that less children are going to football? There are always plenty of kids around. I think there are less young lads going with their mates these days but that is probably due to it just not being easy/impossible to just go on the day and stand together like we used to do.

[owl_83]

7 minutes ago, Manwë said:

I'm going to cry crocodile tears for the likes of Man Utd, Real Madrid feeling they don't have enough support.  They have true global reach and income from all over the globe, and I imagine that many youngsters in faraway places pick those two clubs especially to support, and will buy shirts, subscribe to services etc.

 

Other clubs, including Wednesday, less so, but we are obsessed with increasing revenue (rightly so in the circumstances), but it's at the expense of fans in general, and the motivation is purely to increase the wages for players.  All players have benefitted from the "rising tide lifts all boats" clause.   

 

I did fag packed maths a few months back.  Shearer when he joined Blackburn was on £3k a week.  This was a mind-boggling sum of money then.  With inflation taken into account, that'd be the equivalent of around £6.7k a week in 2021.  To put that in perspective, Cameron Dawson earns about 40% more than Shearer did when he was banging in goals for fun, consistently, at the highest level but domestically and internationally.  Happy to be corrected on all those figures, but that's a general overview of the state of play.

 

Young fans don't generate enough income to pay for those mediocre players to earn £10k+ a week, so we create means of getting money from children (their parents) in order to make the likes of Cameron Dawson millionaires. 

 

The rot in the game is from the top, but nothing can be done or will be done without true team efforts across the board from the EPL to League 2.  And that, is why the game won't progress on the matters of sustainability and finances.  Look at all the numpties who blame FFP for Chansiri's failings.  As far as some say, Chansiri should be able to spend what he wants, as much as he wants, when he wants.  Well, if he is to over-spend, it won't be in the form of subsidising ticket prices, or a pie, or invest in making the seats comfy.  Those things will remain top price for the fans.  The money will be spent on giving Cameron Dawson another few £k a week to keep a large squad intact.  And when Wednesday do that, some poo goalkeeper in another poo Championship club is likely to gets a wage boost.  The market has changed by inflating wages at one club, all clubs copy or get left-behind.

 

Next season there'll be more empty seats than seats with fans in.  And the model we have, like most clubs have, is to generate even more money from fewer fans.  A 10-20 year vision of getting fans immersed in the club doesn't pay Dawson's salary now.   We should be giving those seats away for £0. 

 

Apologies to Dawson, it wasn't personal, he was the first most crap player I could think of at Wednesday.

 

 

Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Would you say Shearer's equivalent would be on around £200k a week now (being modest). If so that means footballers are on nearly 30 times more than what footballers were on 25/30 years ago. And that is even taking into account inflation. Can you honestly say that football is that much more exciting today than it was 25/30 years ago? I can't. In fact I think it has got more boring.

 

I was 10 in 1994 and can still remember the excitement I felt as a kid. I still watch the highlights of us beating Blackburn 4-2 at Ewood Park, jumping around like an idiot. No one can tell me the fans experience has got richer over the last 25/30 years.

[matthefish2002]

56 minutes ago, vulva said:

It boils down to the quality of the product on the pitch. Everything else thereafter falls into place. 

 

Think that part of it but not all of it.

In some ways football on the pitch is 'better' then it was 30 years ago.

Players are a lot more technical and a lot fitter.

But its all a lot duller then it was. Games are a lot more tactical now and a lot less psychical which I don't find as interesting.

 

Also football is a lot more saturated coverage then it was, its everywhere and so people have become bored with it a bit.

Before a game on TV used to feel like an event and now they can be 20 games on TV over a weekend.

 

[vulva]

Just now, matthefish2002 said:

 

Think that part of it but not all of it.

In some ways football on the pitch is 'better' then it was 30 years ago.

Players are a lot more technical and a lot fitter.

But its all a lot duller then it was. Games are a lot more tactical now and a lot less psychical which I don't find as interesting.

 

Also football is a lot more saturated coverage then it was, its everywhere and so people have become bored with it a bit.

Before a game on TV used to feel like an event and now they can be 20 games on TV over a weekend.

 

Agree with all that. Overkill is a key part of this, as is the different forms of entertainment available to kids these days. 

[matthefish2002]

Also think the gap between the players and the supporters is too wide.

Maybe I was a little naive when I was younger but they was more of a sense of we are all in this together.

Even when I was a kid late 80s / early 90s they was a gap between players and fans but now its like we live on different planets so cant relate to them anymore. 

 

 

[vulva]

3 minutes ago, matthefish2002 said:

Also think the gap between the players and the supporters is too wide.

Maybe I was a little naive when I was younger but they was more of a sense of we are all in this together.

Even when I was a kid late 80s / early 90s they was a gap between players and fans but now its like we live on different planets so cant relate to them anymore. 

 

 

That’s down the wages. Hence my comment re wage caps. That’s the fundamental issue in football, and is the root cause of most issues. 

[Manwë]

36 minutes ago, owl_83 said:

If you look at the forums of the big clubs, I think you will find that they are getting bored with it too. They are fed up of paying through the nose for tickets, merchandise, hot dogs, cola. They really are starting to care less and less

 

This is where Big Clubs have a much brighter future than Wednesday.

 

Mr X, big Wednesday fan, stops going to games 'cos it's become too expensive.  His seat is empty.

Mr Y, big Man Utd fan, stops going to games 'cos it's become too expensive.  His seat is immediately occupied with another fan.

 

 

[doubleo]

1 hour ago, Ian said:

Baseball isn’t about sport though is it....it’s a day out where American families have a competition as to how much they can eat whilst the most mind numbing “sport” ever invented is going on behind them

As opposed to football fans who have a competition as to how much they can drink, and then miss most of the match by turning up late and spending half the match going to the toilet, or if your female,  spend 20 minutes queuing to use the loo.  

 

[OWLERTON GHOST]

Its actually cheaper to fly to Borussia Dortmund and watch a game there (and you can have a drink and stand up on the terrace) than it is to travel to watch any of the "Big six games" in our own country ....

 

 

[owl_83]

Just now, Manwë said:

 

This is where Big Clubs have a much brighter future than Wednesday.

 

Mr X, big Wednesday fan, stops going to games 'cos it's become too expensive.  His seat is empty.

Mr Y, big Man Utd fan, stops going to games 'cos it's become too expensive.  His seat is immediately occupied with another fan.

 

 

I agree. But those supporters they replace them with will not be families or working people. They will be corporate sponsors, the Chinese or American tourists who fly in, have a stadium tour and fly back out again. There are no kids getting involved and so the next generation of fans are lost. Eventually it will burn itself out. 

 

The trouble with Wednesday and football in general is, we have had a year out of the game. People have seen what other entertainment is out there. For £40 you can take the family to Yorkshire Wildlife Park and have a better and longer day out than going to Hillsborough. For £100 you can get a season pass for the family and get better value. 

[Dutch McLovin]

50 minutes ago, Jeffjohnsonmyhero said:

The fact is they pay the players too much money and the cost is on a ticket prices .I have 2 sons took them to Hillsborough 5 yrs old onwards ,Youngest will go with me ,Oldest both working mind says too expensive .The clubs wanting a breakaway  Real Madrid £450 million in debt ,Barcelona £1.5 billion because they pay silly money ,For me there should be a wage cap on your budget is your season ticket money ,Does anyone think POTG next year in Lg one will be less than £30 ? Its too expensive !

its too expensive in the championship never mind league one 

[jp1981]

1 hour ago, vulva said:

Wage cap is the only thing that will save the game. Unless that gets dealt with, everything else is irrelevant. 

I agree. Also agents need better regulation or taking out of the game altogether. 

 

I said in another thread, that football needs to reset. Salary should be based on a basic amount then topped up by capped performance related bonuses. 

 

Then there needs to be something done about transfer fees and ticket prices. 

 

If all these are sorted, football can become more sustainable. 

 

You would hope if player wages are based more on performance bonuses then football on the pitch / desire to win would improve. 

[Manwë]

1 minute ago, OWLERTON GHOST said:

Its actually cheaper to fly to Borussia Dortmund and watch a game there (and you can have a drink and stand up on the terrace) than it is to travel to watch any of the "Big six games" in our own country ....

 

 

 

A whole different kettle of fish over there.  A matchday ticket can be used on public transport too.

 

Something to do with fan ownership.  I don't know how it works exactly but my understanding from reading Owlstalk is that the fans submit their team selection my mail (remember play by mail?  It's just like that), and then organise a 2500+ committee before each game, and select the team using elections and referenda.  Negotiations would start with any objectors, until a compromise is settled.  Then at half-time (which last 8 hours in Germany), each fan is allowed 1 minute with the players to discuss the second half.  

 

We are smarter than that here, we have people who can't say "Wednesday" to own us.  If Wednesday fans got together, there'd be biscuits.  And I'm against other fans eating biscuits.  It boils my ********.

[Animis]

2 minutes ago, doubleo said:

As opposed to football fans who have a competition as to how much they can drink, and then miss most of the match by turning up late and spending half the match going to the toilet, or if your female,  spend 20 minutes queuing to use the loo.  

 

 

I think there lies the problem. It's a culturally thing, that even me gets compromised.

 

My best days of watching SWFC were 84-94. It was probably no coincidence that I was at the age we all used to go the games as mates - a gang who went out up town after - spent time together, went on holidays - had kits on aboard etc. It was very loyal and close, and SWFC were in some respects the catalyst for this.

 

This has diminished through the years and even through I still go, it's not with the same crowd and it's a very different experience. I do wonder what kids/young men in particular (could be young women) have as the 'bond' we had. The ticket and seating restrictions; pubs shutting and high prices will presumably push the once hard core generation away. Even away games now seem to have an ever increasing average age of fan. If this carries on, I don't the numbers being sustained. Of course success would change this, even if it was temporary.