Garry Monk “there were a lot of things wrong at SWFC”

[Ante's Bubbly]

23 minutes ago, LondonOwl313 said:

I’ve only read the first half of this as didn’t have time to read it all, but there’s so many things wrong with it and I can’t believe we have fans who swallowed the nonsense from Jos and Monk about bad eggs and stuff.

 

Westwood only came here under Gray so he definitely wasn’t one of our better performers under Jones. His injury record... he played most of the games for 3 years between 2014-17, if someone plays 80+% of games then why do they get labelled a crock, that makes no sense. Was injured when Jos got here but you say that after he was fit again that Jos chose the best available keeper.. we all know that’s nonsense because even if Westwood isn’t at his best it’s clear he’s better than the other two.

 

Similarly with Hutchinson, you’re labelling him as a crock but hasn’t he just played about a dozen games in quick succession without missing any.. so that’s just not true.

 

We had injury problems in 2017-18 but I honestly don’t remember a time where we’ve ‘used all our subs on older, injury prone players’. Nor did Chansiri get pressured in to anything.. and nor did he specify to managers that they couldn’t select certain players. We already know that because managers have confirmed it and also because different managers have chosen to bring players back in from the cold straight away.

 

You have just underlined perfectly why it is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with people like you.

 

You twist other people's words, you imply that people have said things and used words that they have not and you then use your warped sense of injustice to back up your ridiculous argument instead of proving your point. 

 

In a reply to somebody else's questions you totally misunderstand and twist another line as a reason for ridiculing the other facts.  You really cannot take part of a sentence and use it totally out of context to prove your case! How desperate are you? I made a comment about Monk' personal wealth as part of a list of accusations that Monk haters had used against him! Some of these people even saying that Monk had not bought such and such a player which has nothing to do with Monk, business wise, football wise or financially, because Chansiri is in control of everything.

 

You need to have a good think about why you are having a go at Monk before you try blaming things on him that were totally out of his responsibility to control.

 

The only thing you were right about, which again does not affect the argument at all is that I had put Westwood down as playing for Jones and Gray before Carlos, Jos and Monk, but I had got mixed up with Jones signing Kirkland and Gray signing Westwood, either way Monk again had nothing to do with it!

 

I really have no interest whatsoever in why you, or anybody else chooses to pick on one person to blame for everything going wrong when it is so obviously not their fault. That mate is something you need to ask yourself. Monk was doing everything he could to be part of the solution but was held back as plenty of people have pointed out with a list of obstacles thrown in his way. Monk made lots of mistakes and held his hand up to most of them, it is impossible for anybody to be right about everything all the time, no-body has ever said that he was our best manager or anything like that, but he is nowhere near to being our worst manager. Deprived by our owner and his recruitment department of having the fit young hungry players he wanted, including key players like strikers, you know, if you can remember they are the ones that score you the majority of your goals, he managed to get the set of new players, young lads and old injured players that he had to use at the start of the season to keep 5 clean sheets in 11 league games, which was the kind record that unfortunately Pulis could only dream of! With all the players nicely settled in and without us missing between 6 & 8 defenders and defensive midfield players, as Monk had to do in the short three to four game run before he was sacked, we have only managed to get another 5 clean sheets! We were literally seconds away from another So the various coaches/managers since then in 26 games, have only managed another 5 clean sheets between them!

 

Yeah Monk was that bad! The games we did not concede a goal in were against good sides, with several good dangerous strikers too like;- Cardiff, Watford, Birmingham, Bournemouth and Millwall. In the 37 games that we have played up to now, with Monk's defensive record not getting any better despite the number of defenders we have had available since then we would have had another 6.8 clean sheets than we have right now, which suggest that we would also have more points. If we had got the same results later in the season, against just the five teams we got a clean sheet against back in those awful troubled injury strewn matches under Monk, we would have beaten Birmingham again, and drawn against Millwall, giving us 4 more points and Birmingham 3 less, which would put us above Birmingham and out of the relegation zone. With just 4 extra points gained from our better defensive record we could also be above teams like Coventry and Derby right now too, but as you say why rely on facts and things that actually happened when you can make up your own facts.

 

There were lots of other factors and terrible scenes of bad luck in some of those early games which could quite easily have seen us with even more points and at least one more clean sheet under Monk. The game when we were winning 1-0 against QPR with Shaw having to go off injured early doors, Palmer came on for him and then himself got injured and had to go off, leaving us short of defenders but Odubajo came on and we went into the last couple of minutes of the game until Tom Lees got injured again and this time had to come off. Having used all our subs and having two defenders go off injured we had to play the last couple of minutes with 10 men. Approaching the 6th minute of extra time, Luongo had a shot hit the bar and QPR broke down the other end of the pitch, put a cross into where Lees had been so strong all match and managed to score an equaliser. That was a heavy blow when we were on course to win a well deserved 3 points, but there were similar games like the one where JVA got sent off and we conceded just afterwards to lose more points, but despite those results as the team building was still going on Monk still managed to keep us improving as a team, right up to the game after which he was sacked. Sacked by somebody who has absolutely no idea what he is doing football wise or business wise. The mess we were in well before Monk came, were in during Monk's games in charge and are even deeper in after monk's sacking is only down to one person and he is not called Garry Monk.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

16 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

You have just underlined perfectly why it is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with people like you.

 

You twist other people's words, you imply that people have said things and used words that they have not and you then use your warped sense of injustice to back up your ridiculous argument instead of proving your point. 

 

In a reply to somebody else's questions you totally misunderstand and twist another line as a reason for ridiculing the other facts.  You really cannot take part of a sentence and use it totally out of context to prove your case! How desperate are you? I made a comment about Monk' personal wealth as part of a list of accusations that Monk haters had used against him! Some of these people even saying that Monk had not bought such and such a player which has nothing to do with Monk, business wise, football wise or financially, because Chansiri is in control of everything.

 

You need to have a good think about why you are having a go at Monk before you try blaming things on him that were totally out of his responsibility to control.

 

The only thing you were right about, which again does not affect the argument at all is that I had put Westwood down as playing for Jones and Gray before Carlos, Jos and Monk, but I had got mixed up with Jones signing Kirkland and Gray signing Westwood, either way Monk again had nothing to do with it!

 

I really have no interest whatsoever in why you, or anybody else chooses to pick on one person to blame for everything going wrong when it is so obviously not their fault. That mate is something you need to ask yourself. Monk was doing everything he could to be part of the solution but was held back as plenty of people have pointed out with a list of obstacles thrown in his way. Monk made lots of mistakes and held his hand up to most of them, it is impossible for anybody to be right about everything all the time, no-body has ever said that he was our best manager or anything like that, but he is nowhere near to being our worst manager. Deprived by our owner and his recruitment department of having the fit young hungry players he wanted, including key players like strikers, you know, if you can remember they are the ones that score you the majority of your goals, he managed to get the set of new players, young lads and old injured players that he had to use at the start of the season to keep 5 clean sheets in 11 league games, which was the kind record that unfortunately Pulis could only dream of! With all the players nicely settled in and without us missing between 6 & 8 defenders and defensive midfield players, as Monk had to do in the short three to four game run before he was sacked, we have only managed to get another 5 clean sheets! We were literally seconds away from another So the various coaches/managers since then in 26 games, have only managed another 5 clean sheets between them!

 

Yeah Monk was that bad! The games we did not concede a goal in were against good sides, with several good dangerous strikers too like;- Cardiff, Watford, Birmingham, Bournemouth and Millwall. In the 37 games that we have played up to now, with Monk's defensive record not getting any better despite the number of defenders we have had available since then we would have had another 6.8 clean sheets than we have right now, which suggest that we would also have more points. If we had got the same results later in the season, against just the five teams we got a clean sheet against back in those awful troubled injury strewn matches under Monk, we would have beaten Birmingham again, and drawn against Millwall, giving us 4 more points and Birmingham 3 less, which would put us above Birmingham and out of the relegation zone. With just 4 extra points gained from our better defensive record we could also be above teams like Coventry and Derby right now too, but as you say why rely on facts and things that actually happened when you can make up your own facts.

 

There were lots of other factors and terrible scenes of bad luck in some of those early games which could quite easily have seen us with even more points and at least one more clean sheet under Monk. The game when we were winning 1-0 against QPR with Shaw having to go off injured early doors, Palmer came on for him and then himself got injured and had to go off, leaving us short of defenders but Odubajo came on and we went into the last couple of minutes of the game until Tom Lees got injured again and this time had to come off. Having used all our subs and having two defenders go off injured we had to play the last couple of minutes with 10 men. Approaching the 6th minute of extra time, Luongo had a shot hit the bar and QPR broke down the other end of the pitch, put a cross into where Lees had been so strong all match and managed to score an equaliser. That was a heavy blow when we were on course to win a well deserved 3 points, but there were similar games like the one where JVA got sent off and we conceded just afterwards to lose more points, but despite those results as the team building was still going on Monk still managed to keep us improving as a team, right up to the game after which he was sacked. Sacked by somebody who has absolutely no idea what he is doing football wise or business wise. The mess we were in well before Monk came, were in during Monk's games in charge and are even deeper in after monk's sacking is only down to one person and he is not called Garry Monk.

Christ you’re either Garry Monk, someone related to Garry Monk or some sort of Garry Monk agent lol. I agree with everything you say about Chansiri, but Monk was a terrible manager for us. 
 

Last season he got 4 wins from the last 23 and we can’t blame that on the lack of attacking options as we had Forestieri, Fletcher, Wickham, Nuhui, Murphy and Rhodes. I appreciate Fletcher was injured for a bit and Wickham wasn’t here the full season but a decent manager could get goals from that lot. 
 

This season i think was actually less his fault but he had to go as it was an accumulation of things. We only have Rhodes who can score regularly but he still didn’t play him. First half a dozen games we did ok but didn’t offer much attacking intent. Losing to Luton, Rotherham and Wycombe within a week was inexcusable though and I think it was more likely than not that our form would have faded as the season went on just as it did last year, and that’s why he had to go.

 

We’ve made even more mistakes since sacking him but that’s by the by, he just wasn’t good enough and deserves all the criticism he gets.

[Ante's Bubbly]

2 hours ago, LondonOwl313 said:

I’ve only read the first half of this as didn’t have time to read it all, but there’s so many things wrong with it and I can’t believe we have fans who swallowed the nonsense from Jos and Monk about bad eggs and stuff.

 

Westwood only came here under Gray so he definitely wasn’t one of our better performers under Jones. His injury record... he played most of the games for 3 years between 2014-17, if someone plays 80+% of games then why do they get labelled a crock, that makes no sense. Was injured when Jos got here but you say that after he was fit again that Jos chose the best available keeper.. we all know that’s nonsense because even if Westwood isn’t at his best it’s clear he’s better than the other two.

 

Similarly with Hutchinson, you’re labelling him as a crock but hasn’t he just played about a dozen games in quick succession without missing any.. so that’s just not true.

 

We had injury problems in 2017-18 but I honestly don’t remember a time where we’ve ‘used all our subs on older, injury prone players’. Nor did Chansiri get pressured in to anything.. and nor did he specify to managers that they couldn’t select certain players. We already know that because managers have confirmed it and also because different managers have chosen to bring players back in from the cold straight away.

 

You cannot have a selective memory either when forgetting about injuries or very poor runs in the team. All our players have made mistakes and been dropped as a consequence, if they are not determined enough to fight their way back into the team and our owner does not stump up money to buy suitable replacements that is not Monk's fault either.

 

Just a couple of the more recent injuries, dare say there are more, but you could actually find them yourself as you are so interested?

 

From the Star newspaper August 2018...

 

Keiren Westwood, the man who held the jersey for three and a half seasons before suffering a long-term injury in December, didn't make the matchday 18 for Championship opening day last Saturday.

Boss Luhukay opted to play 23-year-old Dawson at Wigan Athletic and have Wildsmith, 22, on the bench, even though Westwood has recovered from the groin complaint which ruled him out for five months last term.

 

From the Star newspaper August 2018...

 

Despite shrugging off a long-term injury over the summer, Republic of Ireland international Westwood has slipped behind Cameron Dawson and Joe Wildsmith in the battle for a starting berth.

 

Luhukay, "Keiren Westwood has been injured in the last three weeks. He is not training.

"I will not speak after every game about players who have not played.'

 

Luhukay had tried to make it clear that there had been no falling out with Westwood, Hutchinson, or other older players and that all decisions made were based on who he thought was best for the job.

 

From Yorkshire Post Nov 2019....

 

KEIREN WESTWOOD will miss Sheffield Wednesday’s Championship game at home to Birmingham City tonight with a minor shoulder injury, but manager Garry Monk has made it clear he would not have played anyway.

 

Westwood errors have been behind three of the last four goals the Owls have conceded, his weakness at crosses twice costly against Swansea City, and a rush of blood gifting West Bromwich Albion an 89th-minute penalty on Saturday.

 

There are plenty more examples including the shocking goalkeeping performance against Sunderland which resulted in them taking the lead and making the same mistake again to nearly give another goal away his blushes were spared by David Jones first goal for us.

 

Since Westwood got his head and his game back on track recently I think he has looked much better, although he has continued to get niggly injuries.

 

Yorkshire Post November 2020.... 

 

Sheffield Wednesday's Keiren Westwood out for at least a fortnight as Tony Pulis slams fixture list.

 

February 2021...

 

Westwood Out Injured As Owls Make Changes

 

 

[Ante's Bubbly]

1 hour ago, LondonOwl313 said:

Christ you’re either Garry Monk, someone related to Garry Monk or some sort of Garry Monk agent lol. I agree with everything you say about Chansiri, but Monk was a terrible manager for us. 
 

Last season he got 4 wins from the last 23 and we can’t blame that on the lack of attacking options as we had Forestieri, Fletcher, Wickham, Nuhui, Murphy and Rhodes. I appreciate Fletcher was injured for a bit and Wickham wasn’t here the full season but a decent manager could get goals from that lot. 
 

This season i think was actually less his fault but he had to go as it was an accumulation of things. We only have Rhodes who can score regularly but he still didn’t play him. First half a dozen games we did ok but didn’t offer much attacking intent. Losing to Luton, Rotherham and Wycombe within a week was inexcusable though and I think it was more likely than not that our form would have faded as the season went on just as it did last year, and that’s why he had to go.

 

We’ve made even more mistakes since sacking him but that’s by the by, he just wasn’t good enough and deserves all the criticism he gets.

 

Please do not "lots of love" me with your  twitter and text talk. I come from a generation when news was mainly news as it happened, or very close to it and not decided by people trying to change opinions on social media. I am also from a generation that were not too lazy to read something longer than one side of an A4 sheet of paper and had concentration spans of more than a goldfish, but hey ho. This is a forum where grown ups address each other with words and sentences and use facts, not opinions to back up statements when questioned.

 

I am not bothered how bad a manager you think Monk was for us, we would have been better off keeping him this season points wise and he would have been able to address some of the issues which our chairman has decided it is not worth even bothering to talk to us about. I am not him, not related to him and not an agent of his in any way whatsoever, I just do not like to hear or read stupid comments and opinions dressed up as facts that are wrong and ill intended about anybody, particularly when written about people that have done their best for our club and been prevented from doing even better by our darling loveable misunderstood owner.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

3 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

You cannot have a selective memory either when forgetting about injuries or very poor runs in the team. All our players have made mistakes and been dropped as a consequence, if they are not determined enough to fight their way back into the team and our owner does not stump up money to buy suitable replacements that is not Monk's fault either.

 

Just a couple of the more recent injuries, dare say there are more, but you could actually find them yourself as you are so interested?

 

From the Star newspaper August 2018...

 

Keiren Westwood, the man who held the jersey for three and a half seasons before suffering a long-term injury in December, didn't make the matchday 18 for Championship opening day last Saturday.

Boss Luhukay opted to play 23-year-old Dawson at Wigan Athletic and have Wildsmith, 22, on the bench, even though Westwood has recovered from the groin complaint which ruled him out for five months last term.

 

From the Star newspaper August 2018...

 

Despite shrugging off a long-term injury over the summer, Republic of Ireland international Westwood has slipped behind Cameron Dawson and Joe Wildsmith in the battle for a starting berth.

 

Luhukay, "Keiren Westwood has been injured in the last three weeks. He is not training.

"I will not speak after every game about players who have not played.'

 

Luhukay had tried to make it clear that there had been no falling out with Westwood, Hutchinson, or other older players and that all decisions made were based on who he thought was best for the job.

 

From Yorkshire Post Nov 2019....

 

KEIREN WESTWOOD will miss Sheffield Wednesday’s Championship game at home to Birmingham City tonight with a minor shoulder injury, but manager Garry Monk has made it clear he would not have played anyway.

 

Westwood errors have been behind three of the last four goals the Owls have conceded, his weakness at crosses twice costly against Swansea City, and a rush of blood gifting West Bromwich Albion an 89th-minute penalty on Saturday.

 

There are plenty more examples including the shocking goalkeeping performance against Sunderland which resulted in them taking the lead and making the same mistake again to nearly give another goal away his blushes were spared by David Jones first goal for us.

 

Since Westwood got his head and his game back on track recently I think he has looked much better, although he has continued to get niggly injuries.

 

Yorkshire Post November 2020.... 

 

Sheffield Wednesday's Keiren Westwood out for at least a fortnight as Tony Pulis slams fixture list.

 

February 2021...

 

Westwood Out Injured As Owls Make Changes

 

 

I’m not disputing any of that though, and I don’t think anyone else is either. His time has probably come now at 36 and injuries becoming more frequent.

 

But it’s about what happened at the time.. as I said before 2014-15, 2015-16 and 2016-17 he was rarely injured for league games but often pulled out of Ireland squads with ongoing niggles. I think he missed maybe 10 games or so in a row in the Wembley season where Wildsmith deputised but other than that he only missed the odd game here and there. The stats back that up as he played in 120 out of 143 league games (84% of games) in those first 3 seasons.. that’s not the record of someone who deserves the label of a crock. And he was widely regarded as one of the best keepers in the division at that time and named in the Championship team of the season for one those seasons, can’t remember which. 2017-18 he got off to a slow start, was poor in the derby at Hillsborough and then had a long term injury so was out for most of the back half of the season. But I think he had a lot of credit in the bank from those first 3 seasons so most can forgive him for not having a good season.

 

So that takes us up to August 2018 and the article you’re quoting, and this is where it can be disputed. Maybe he had a small injury at that time or maybe he didn’t.. I’m pretty sure that Westwood said on Twitter that he was fit in direct contradiction to what Jos said to the press. But it was clear from Jos’s answer that there was some kind of friction going on between them even if publicly he said there wasn’t. Only a blind person would say that Dawson is a better keeper than Westwood, that holds true today and was certainly true in 2018. So he was basically left out for the first half of the season.. he wasn’t injured. Then Bullen/Bruce took over and Westwood came back in and played in most of the games.. think he missed 2-3 out of the last 23, not too bad injury record wise. And our form dramatically improved whether that was related to Westwood, Hutchinson or a new manager we don’t know but he played a part in it. His clean sheet stats were up there with his best over the second half of 2018-19.
 

So the way I see it, 2014-19, the first 5 seasons, he was outstanding for the first 3 years, average for half a season, injured for half a season, left at home through no fault of his own for half a season, then was outstanding again for half a season. And he had two injuries keeping him out for about 75% of a season in total across 5 seasons. That means he was available for the majority of the other 80+% of games in that 5 years and still undeserving of being called a crock.

 

Then we get to 2019/20 and he was sloppy for the first dozen or so games then was excluded by Monk. Who knows how many games he would have been fit to play. But he was still our best keeper. When he came back in in 2020/21 his stats when he plays are better than the other two still. But now he is getting more frequent injuries.. probably doesn’t help that he was forced to have a year off at age 35, difficult to come back in professional sport at that age.

 

As I said, I think his time is up now at the end of this season. But I just don’t get why people make out as if he’s been injured or in poor form or somehow worse than the other keeping options for about 5 years because the stats and my own eyesight definitely don’t back that up.

[DIPPS_S.W.F.C]

16 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

Please do not "lots of love" me with your  twitter and text talk. I come from a generation when news was mainly news as it happened, or very close to it and not decided by people trying to change opinions on social media. I am also from a generation that were not too lazy to read something longer than one side of an A4 sheet of paper and had concentration spans of more than a goldfish, but hey ho. This is a forum where grown ups address each other with words and sentences and use facts, not opinions to back up statements when questioned.

 

I am not bothered how bad a manager you think Monk was for us, we would have been better off keeping him this season points wise and he would have been able to address some of the issues which our chairman has decided it is not worth even bothering to talk to us about. I am not him, not related to him and not an agent of his in any way whatsoever, I just do not like to hear or read stupid comments and opinions dressed up as facts that are wrong and ill intended about anybody, particularly when written about people that have done their best for our club and been prevented from doing even better by our darling loveable misunderstood owner.

Why would Monk have been able to address our issues now if he couldnt do it season before with a better squad of players??

He was shocking,his win rate is the worse ever then any other manager,he should have gone end of last season,the only reason he was still here was because of the situation we are all in now,DC kept him in as a cheaper option to sack and replace,with a quick turn around in pre season,it saved his job for the short term.

YEP DC AT FAULT AGAIN,not acti ng quick enough and thinking somehow Monk could turn around his shocking run of form and tactics.IMO the -12 pointer he got Brum out of was a factor too,but he had been gash for along time.He was lucky he lasted that long.

UTO

[Guest LondonOwl313]

23 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

Please do not "lots of love" me with your  twitter and text talk. I come from a generation when news was mainly news as it happened, or very close to it and not decided by people trying to change opinions on social media. I am also from a generation that were not too lazy to read something longer than one side of an A4 sheet of paper and had concentration spans of more than a goldfish, but hey ho. This is a forum where grown ups address each other with words and sentences and use facts, not opinions to back up statements when questioned.

 

I am not bothered how bad a manager you think Monk was for us, we would have been better off keeping him this season points wise and he would have been able to address some of the issues which our chairman has decided it is not worth even bothering to talk to us about. I am not him, not related to him and not an agent of his in any way whatsoever, I just do not like to hear or read stupid comments and opinions dressed up as facts that are wrong and ill intended about anybody, particularly when written about people that have done their best for our club and been prevented from doing even better by our darling loveable misunderstood owner.

I dunno mate, I don’t mind longer posts but yours are super long without actually making many points. You can’t expect someone to read a dozen paragraphs if you’re not saying anything in particular.

 

Would also say that stats don’t back up half of the opinions you’re expressing. Sometimes things are subjective but other times they aren’t. Like if a manager wins 4 games out of 23 having been third in the league at Xmas then that’s a pretty poor showing and there’s not really any way of dressing that up or passing the buck.

 

And people can criticise the players and manager and still think the owner has done a terrible job too. It’s not one or the other.. in reality the chairman has given the managers a pretty rubbish set of tools to work with, and we’ve also had a succession of managers who’ve done a bad job of getting the best out of those tools. And that’s why we are where we are.. you can get away with one of the chairman or manager being inept if the other one knows what they’re doing but when both do a bad job the outcome is always failure on the pitch 

[CourteenerOwl]

Wether you believe Monks cheerleaders that he didn’t sign players ( I don’t), what sort of manager doesn’t sign and out and out striker or left back during the summer. If he’s not signing them he’s still the manager of the club and should have been down the recruitment teams necks on them two positions.

[Ante's Bubbly]

On 25/03/2021 at 13:42, DIPPS_S.W.F.C said:

Exactly.....

He was gash...

Destroyed the little bit of hope we had left and was kept in the job way to long after the worst run in S.W.F.C hostory,you couldnt make it up.

He was a poor manager during his tine here, but you seem to be forgetting what the OP is about. I agree with Monk he should not have taken the job. As I said originally Jos, Bruce, Monk, Pulis and Moore were all stupid for taking the job on, there are loads of things wrong at our club making it very difficult for any good coach to even do a mediocre job never mind win promotion. None of them stood a chance and they all found out too late. The only other point I have tred to make is that Monk was doing a better job than the others this season of keeping us up. The form under Monk like 5 clean sheets in just 11 league games beating  Birmingham, Cardiff and Bournemouth, drawing with Watford and Millwall would have seen us out of the bottom 3. If you don't understand the simplicity of my point, or choose not to, that is up to you. The fact that he still managed those kinds of stats with so many defenders missing  suggests we would have done better with him. I am also pretty sure that managers like him getting sacked after he played so many young players (and still got those kind of results), is not a good sign to young players either. I do not blame players like Hirst, Clare and Shaw for leaving us. There is no future here for good young players our whole setup is a shambles.

 

BTW if you think Monk is our worst ever manager, then you have not seen, or remembered all the rubbish managers some of us have seen at the club over the last 50 years!

 

You also have to remember that poor clubs get poor results and apart from two seasons where we nearly got up through the play offs (and Grays last season), we have been a poor club for a long time. Poorly planned, poorly invested in, poorly managed from the top down. In fact any manager managing us over the last 20 years would have struggled with us and most of them did, but most times we struggled the whole setup player wise was a mess. The only time I can remember us getting relegated with a good set of players was under Ron Atkinson and that was a wierd set of events that led up to it.

 

UTO!  

[bobness]

7 hours ago, CourteenerOwl said:

 

Wether you believe Monks cheerleaders that he didn’t sign players ( I don’t), what sort of manager doesn’t sign and out and out striker or left back during the summer. If he’s not signing them he’s still the manager of the club and should have been down the recruitment teams necks on them two positions.

 

When you consider the number of times we signed players without a manager in place, it should be clear that the manager's involvement in signings is more limited than the club would like you to believe...

[Ante's Bubbly]

7 hours ago, CourteenerOwl said:

Wether you believe Monks cheerleaders that he didn’t sign players ( I don’t), what sort of manager doesn’t sign and out and out striker or left back during the summer. If he’s not signing them he’s still the manager of the club and should have been down the recruitment teams necks on them two positions.

I bet he never thought of that!

 

I bet he never argued with them or Chansiri over the players they did not sign for him, or the crocks they did sign for him, because that would probably get him  the sack before the January window wouldnt it.....oh hang on....even Pulis got sacked after telling Chansiri the squad was a mess!

[Guest LondonOwl313]

12 minutes ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

He was a poor manager during his tine here, but you seem to be forgetting what the OP is about. I agree with Monk he should not have taken the job. As I said originally Jos, Bruce, Monk, Pulis and Moore were all stupid for taking the job on, there are loads of things wrong at our club making it very difficult for any good coach to even do a mediocre job never mind win promotion. None of them stood a chance and they all found out too late. The only other point I have tred to make is that Monk was doing a better job than the others this season of keeping us up. The form under Monk like 5 clean sheets in just 11 league games beating  Birmingham, Cardiff and Bournemouth, drawing with Watford and Millwall would have seen us out of the bottom 3. If you don't understand the simplicity of my point, or choose not to, that is up to you. The fact that he still managed those kinds of stats with so many defenders missing  suggests we would have done better with him. I am also pretty sure that managers like him getting sacked after he played so many young players (and still got those kind of results), is not a good sign to young players either. I do not blame players like Hirst, Clare and Shaw for leaving us. There is no future here for good young players our whole setup is a shambles.

 

BTW if you think Monk is our worst ever manager, then you have not seen, or remembered all the rubbish managers some of us have seen at the club over the last 50 years!

 

You also have to remember that poor clubs get poor results and apart from two seasons where we nearly got up through the play offs (and Grays last season), we have been a poor club for a long time. Poorly planned, poorly invested in, poorly managed from the top down. In fact any manager managing us over the last 20 years would have struggled with us and most of them did, but most times we struggled the whole setup player wise was a mess. The only time I can remember us getting relegated with a good set of players was under Ron Atkinson and that was a wierd set of events that led up to it.

 

UTO!  

This is what I mean though.. you state these things as fact when basic analysis of the stats shows that it’s just not true. That’s why many people don’t understand the simplicity of your point because it’s just not a point to start with. 
 

Ignoring the points deduction:

 

Under Monk this season: 12 points from 11 games 

Without Monk this season: 26 points from 26 games

 

Thats basically the same points per game, not a statistically significant difference. If we’re being generous to Monk we say that we’re currently 2 points worse off than we would have been under him on his trajectory. It’s a rounding error. Oh and if we add those back on we’d be on 34 points from 37 games and still be sat 4 points adrift of safety, so not outside the bottom 3 as you claim. People won’t take it seriously when there are so many basic factual errors stated as fact.

 

It’s also somewhat odd to single out the good results under some of the better teams and then ignore the 0 points from 9 against teams we were going to be near the bottom with, when they’re the games that determine whether we stay up.

[Ante's Bubbly]

I am getting the general impression that some people wanted Monk out because they did not like him. I am also getting the impression that those same people thought that the players are all brilliant and Monk was the one messing things up. Well just take a few minutes to look through our results under Monk this season on the club website up to his sacking. Look at the players he used, the defenders that were all missing etc in the match reports on the same page and then look how results went downhill after he was sacked. If it was not for the amazing run of results under NT, before normal service was resumed, we would be down now and rock bottom of the table. Monk was sacked at the wrong time. If he had been at fault last season why didnt Chansiri sack him in the summer? Chansiri pulled the rug from under Monk last year when instead of backing him when we were near the top of the table he missed paying the players and offered players Monk wanted to keep such poor contracts that they did not turn out for us again and those that did (Nuhiu and Lee) left in the summer. 

 

Check your facts Monk haters but we have moved a lot of players out in the last two seasons, try checking the ins and outs for the last two seasons on wikipedia and explain to us how much Chansiri has backed Monk and Bruce. I've posted the numbers and sone of the pkayers before, but the Monk haters cannot be bothered to check the facts. Well I remember them and know that Chansiri has let us all down very badly over the last 4 years. I would love somebody to prove me wrong,so get on with it instead of nit picking.

[83owl]

13 hours ago, CourteenerOwl said:

Wether you believe Monks cheerleaders that he didn’t sign players ( I don’t), what sort of manager doesn’t sign and out and out striker or left back during the summer. If he’s not signing them he’s still the manager of the club and should have been down the recruitment teams necks on them two positions.

Why didn’t we sign a left back or a striker in January then if players in those positions are so important? We obviously had some cash as we signed Green and Hutchinson instead.

[@owlstalk]

17 hours ago, CourteenerOwl said:

Wether you believe Monks cheerleaders  

 

 

'cheerleaders'

 

Oh dear...

[Guest LondonOwl313]

11 hours ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

I am getting the general impression that some people wanted Monk out because they did not like him. I am also getting the impression that those same people thought that the players are all brilliant and Monk was the one messing things up. Well just take a few minutes to look through our results under Monk this season on the club website up to his sacking. Look at the players he used, the defenders that were all missing etc in the match reports on the same page and then look how results went downhill after he was sacked. If it was not for the amazing run of results under NT, before normal service was resumed, we would be down now and rock bottom of the table. Monk was sacked at the wrong time. If he had been at fault last season why didnt Chansiri sack him in the summer? Chansiri pulled the rug from under Monk last year when instead of backing him when we were near the top of the table he missed paying the players and offered players Monk wanted to keep such poor contracts that they did not turn out for us again and those that did (Nuhiu and Lee) left in the summer. 

 

Check your facts Monk haters but we have moved a lot of players out in the last two seasons, try checking the ins and outs for the last two seasons on wikipedia and explain to us how much Chansiri has backed Monk and Bruce. I've posted the numbers and sone of the pkayers before, but the Monk haters cannot be bothered to check the facts. Well I remember them and know that Chansiri has let us all down very badly over the last 4 years. I would love somebody to prove me wrong,so get on with it instead of nit picking.

The facts for anyone who doesn’t know them already:

 

Last 23 games of last season where we had a half decent squad of players, a squad good enough for a top half finish:

 

4 wins, 5 draws, 14 defeats = 17 points from 23 games

 

This season where we had few attacking options:

 

Under Monk: 12 points from 11 games

Post Monk: 26 points from 26 games

 

i.e. No material difference and certainly not better under Monk than without him

 

No doubt Garry will be along to write 50 paragraphs explaining himself but those are the basic facts. Anything else is just window dressing of a situation that wasn’t good enough 

[Jim]

21 hours ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

You have just underlined perfectly why it is a waste of time trying to discuss anything with people like you.

 

You twist other people's words, you imply that people have said things and used words that they have not and you then use your warped sense of injustice to back up your ridiculous argument instead of proving your point. 

 

In a reply to somebody else's questions you totally misunderstand and twist another line as a reason for ridiculing the other facts.  You really cannot take part of a sentence and use it totally out of context to prove your case! How desperate are you? I made a comment about Monk' personal wealth as part of a list of accusations that Monk haters had used against him! Some of these people even saying that Monk had not bought such and such a player which has nothing to do with Monk, business wise, football wise or financially, because Chansiri is in control of everything.

 

You need to have a good think about why you are having a go at Monk before you try blaming things on him that were totally out of his responsibility to control.

 

The only thing you were right about, which again does not affect the argument at all is that I had put Westwood down as playing for Jones and Gray before Carlos, Jos and Monk, but I had got mixed up with Jones signing Kirkland and Gray signing Westwood, either way Monk again had nothing to do with it!

 

I really have no interest whatsoever in why you, or anybody else chooses to pick on one person to blame for everything going wrong when it is so obviously not their fault. That mate is something you need to ask yourself. Monk was doing everything he could to be part of the solution but was held back as plenty of people have pointed out with a list of obstacles thrown in his way. Monk made lots of mistakes and held his hand up to most of them, it is impossible for anybody to be right about everything all the time, no-body has ever said that he was our best manager or anything like that, but he is nowhere near to being our worst manager. Deprived by our owner and his recruitment department of having the fit young hungry players he wanted, including key players like strikers, you know, if you can remember they are the ones that score you the majority of your goals, he managed to get the set of new players, young lads and old injured players that he had to use at the start of the season to keep 5 clean sheets in 11 league games, which was the kind record that unfortunately Pulis could only dream of! With all the players nicely settled in and without us missing between 6 & 8 defenders and defensive midfield players, as Monk had to do in the short three to four game run before he was sacked, we have only managed to get another 5 clean sheets! We were literally seconds away from another So the various coaches/managers since then in 26 games, have only managed another 5 clean sheets between them!

 

Yeah Monk was that bad! The games we did not concede a goal in were against good sides, with several good dangerous strikers too like;- Cardiff, Watford, Birmingham, Bournemouth and Millwall. In the 37 games that we have played up to now, with Monk's defensive record not getting any better despite the number of defenders we have had available since then we would have had another 6.8 clean sheets than we have right now, which suggest that we would also have more points. If we had got the same results later in the season, against just the five teams we got a clean sheet against back in those awful troubled injury strewn matches under Monk, we would have beaten Birmingham again, and drawn against Millwall, giving us 4 more points and Birmingham 3 less, which would put us above Birmingham and out of the relegation zone. With just 4 extra points gained from our better defensive record we could also be above teams like Coventry and Derby right now too, but as you say why rely on facts and things that actually happened when you can make up your own facts.

 

There were lots of other factors and terrible scenes of bad luck in some of those early games which could quite easily have seen us with even more points and at least one more clean sheet under Monk. The game when we were winning 1-0 against QPR with Shaw having to go off injured early doors, Palmer came on for him and then himself got injured and had to go off, leaving us short of defenders but Odubajo came on and we went into the last couple of minutes of the game until Tom Lees got injured again and this time had to come off. Having used all our subs and having two defenders go off injured we had to play the last couple of minutes with 10 men. Approaching the 6th minute of extra time, Luongo had a shot hit the bar and QPR broke down the other end of the pitch, put a cross into where Lees had been so strong all match and managed to score an equaliser. That was a heavy blow when we were on course to win a well deserved 3 points, but there were similar games like the one where JVA got sent off and we conceded just afterwards to lose more points, but despite those results as the team building was still going on Monk still managed to keep us improving as a team, right up to the game after which he was sacked. Sacked by somebody who has absolutely no idea what he is doing football wise or business wise. The mess we were in well before Monk came, were in during Monk's games in charge and are even deeper in after monk's sacking is only down to one person and he is not called Garry Monk.

 

I shouldn’t bite because I know what’ll be coming over the mountain as soon as I click submit reply.

 

Monk has admitted to making mistakes? You’ve obviously got his phone number as I haven’t seen him publicly admitting to anyone his mistakes?

 

His biggest one was to dump Westwood and go into this season with Dawson and Wildsmith as first choice keepers which points deduction aside is why we’ll be relegated this season. 

 

I agree not everything wrong at this club is Monk’s fault but we’re in an even bigger mess for his time in charge here. The fact statistically his time here is worse than Kos Lukuhay’s says it all.

 

If you want to have a pop back, in my best John Inman voice, ‘feel freeeeeee’

[83owl]

1 minute ago, Jim said:

 

I shouldn’t bite because I know what’ll be coming over the mountain as soon as I click submit reply.

 

Monk has admitted to making mistakes? You’ve obviously got his phone number as I haven’t seen him publicly admitting to anyone his mistakes?

 

His biggest one was to dump Westwood and go into this season with Dawson and Wildsmith as first choice keepers which points deduction aside is why we’ll be relegated this season. 

 

I agree not everything wrong at this club is Monk’s fault but we’re in an even bigger mess for his time in charge here. The fact statistically his time here is worse than Kos Lukuhay’s says it all.

 

If you want to have a pop back, in my best John Inman voice, ‘feel freeeeeee’

Yes that was a huge mistake not playing Westwood all season. Our form since monk was sacked and Westwood subsequently reinstated has really improved to 27 points from 27 games compared to 11 points from the 10 games under monk. 

 

£30k a week well spent right there.

[Guest LondonOwl313]

30 minutes ago, 83owl said:

Yes that was a huge mistake not playing Westwood all season. Our form since monk was sacked and Westwood subsequently reinstated has really improved to 27 points from 27 games compared to 11 points from the 10 games under monk. 

 

£30k a week well spent right there.

Agree with some of this in that he’s been back involved since game 12 when Pulis took over and over that time the teams form is basically the same as before this time. His record when he’s actually played is better than the other two though, it’s just that he’s been injured too much. He’s always been injury prone but it’s only this season where that’s started to really affect his availability for league games. If he’d actually been fit and played all season we’d have more points than we do now, which I think is Jim’s point but sadly that’s not the case. Sitting at home for a year at age 35 isn’t going to have helped in keeping his body in condition to play professional sport at a high level, so Monk can take some blame for that too.
 

It’s time for him to go at the end of the season. He won’t be on anywhere near £30k but still a lot. 

[Wizzard1867]

On 27/03/2021 at 11:30, @owlstalk said:

 

 

EXACTLY

Now ask yourself - if Monk was responsible for the players coming in why on earth would he do that?

Answer - he simply wouldn't

There's a bigger picture here (not talking about Chansiri)
Finances 
Points deduction
Relegation scrap
Shocking Shocking 'do not go to Sheffield Wednesday' reputation within football
etc etc

 

Garry Monk wouldn't go out and sign players he wouldn't play in his team

Nor would any other manager

But somehow it keeps on happening to every manager at our football club

You are right, but conversely we can't keep on giving Managers a free pass to failure. Hopefully Moore is going to prove abject failure wasn't the only possible outcome. Hopefully...