Uncle Mort AMB Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, PARKOWL said: So in affect if chansiri lost the club and didn’t keep up repayments on the ground then the finance company would be free to make a deal with any potential new owner of the club No finance company is involved in the sale of the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dykwim Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, PARKOWL said: So in affect if chansiri lost the club and didn’t keep up repayments on the ground then the finance company would be free to make a deal with any potential new owner of the club Unless... what if it’s an intercompany transaction to shift the ground to a newco, then the ground has essentially been shifted to a mew business to protect the asset should the club go bust. I swear it was posted, or Chansiri might have said it during his last rant, that there was a loan against the ground though. Perhaps the new “engagement with fans group” could ask this very important question at their next meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dykwim Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Uncle Mort AMB said: No finance company is involved in the sale of the ground. But has a loan since been taken out against the ground within the newco that was formed to “purchase” it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, Uncle Mort AMB said: Yes for £6 million for loan note holders pre Milan which is due 2022 or2023 forget which the company made Chansiri takeout it out has insurance when the EFL put -12 points in place. Right so it’s a pre existing debt on the ground does that mean the debt has moved with the ground to the new company that owns it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 34 minutes ago, youngowl said: So if the club went into administration who would own the ground if the dummy company had not paid for it. Sheffield 3 would still legally own it. Any insolvency firm would have the duty to seek repayment of the debt owed to Sheffield Wednesday Football Club by that company. Could that be honoured by returning ownership to Sheffield Wednesday - yep. Administration would I guess only happen if HMRC instigated it for unpaid PAYE / VAT like they tried before. There is 3rd party debt There could be normal suppliers or if we owed for transfer fees What is correct is that DC is the largest creditor and would seek to control the process as much is allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, dykwim said: Unless... what if it’s an intercompany transaction to shift the ground to a newco, then the ground has essentially been shifted to a mew business to protect the asset should the club go bust. I swear it was posted, or Chansiri might have said it during his last rant, that there was a loan against the ground though. Perhaps the new “engagement with fans group” could ask this very important question at their next meeting? So what you’re saying is and I’m sure this happened with Leicester or Leeds is that Sheffield Wednesday could go in to administration and be bought debt free and by the chansiri company that owns the ground and have no FFP hanging over it as it’s a new company that owns us or have I got that wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, Owling with laughter said: But no money has been transferred anywhere, why would a finance company be involved. It’s all a paper exercise isn’t it? There’s no £60m, it doesn’t exist. He’s supposed to be paying for it at £8m? a year, that’ll be another paper exercise. Just shuffling figures around from fake company to fake company. Tbf he does have to put real money in somewhere. That is why at July 2018 the loan stood at 80m. I suspect but don't actually know that the plan would be to put the real money into S3 Ltd to then repay the intercompany loan 8m per year for the stadium. He is still putting in money but there may be shuffling as to which legal entity it goes into and how this then flows between them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolton9owl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 Whether it be Liquidation or Administration the first to receive and funds would be HMRC, The Taxman (VAT) and then the actual firm of administrators or liquidators which guarantees they are paid for their work (usually quite handsomely). Any further funds left from a ‘fire sale/force sale would determine the amount of money the remaining creditors would receive. As pointed out in another post it would also be the responsibility of the Administration firm to get the best price for the assets but that would directly depend on what any interested party would be prepared to pay for the assets of SWFC. To be fair that’s when the ‘interested parties’ would come out of the woodwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, dykwim said: Unless... what if it’s an intercompany transaction to shift the ground to a newco, then the ground has essentially been shifted to a mew business to protect the asset should the club go bust. I swear it was posted, or Chansiri might have said it during his last rant, that there was a loan against the ground though. Perhaps the new “engagement with fans group” could ask this very important question at their next meeting? There is a charge against the stadium. The loan is about 6m, came about when MM was here, but was inherited when DC bought the shares in the club. Once the stadium was moved to a new legal entity the lenders got nervous about being paid. DC was then forced to give them a degree of security against the loan or they could have forced immediate repayment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, PARKOWL said: So what you’re saying is and I’m sure this happened with Leicester or Leeds is that Sheffield Wednesday could go in to administration and be bought debt free and by the chansiri company that owns the ground and have no FFP hanging over it as it’s a new company that owns us or have I got that wrong Not quite as simple as what Leicester did. Both insolvency rules and league rules are tighter on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnsie Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, bolton9owl said: Whether it be Liquidation or Administration the first to receive and funds would be HMRC, The Taxman (VAT) and then the actual firm of administrators or liquidators which guarantees they are paid for their work (usually quite handsomely). Any further funds left from a ‘fire sale/force sale would determine the amount of money the remaining creditors would receive. As pointed out in another post it would also be the responsibility of the Administration firm to get the best price for the assets but that would directly depend on what any interested party would be prepared to pay for the assets of SWFC. To be fair that’s when the ‘interested parties’ would come out of the woodwork. Yup, and I'm not saying anyone has in this thread, but football fans have a tendency to think "let's just go into admin and start afresh".... Forgetting about all those people with jobs, the money the club would owe to many smaller companies, police etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grandad Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, mkowl said: There is a charge against the stadium. The loan is about 6m, came about when MM was here, but was inherited when DC bought the shares in the club. Once the stadium was moved to a new legal entity the lenders got nervous about being paid. DC was then forced to give them a degree of security against the loan or they could have forced immediate repayment Where have you got that from?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, bolton9owl said: Whether it be Liquidation or Administration the first to receive and funds would be HMRC, The Taxman (VAT) and then the actual firm of administrators or liquidators which guarantees they are paid for their work (usually quite handsomely). Any further funds left from a ‘fire sale/force sale would determine the amount of money the remaining creditors would receive. As pointed out in another post it would also be the responsibility of the Administration firm to get the best price for the assets but that would directly depend on what any interested party would be prepared to pay for the assets of SWFC. To be fair that’s when the ‘interested parties’ would come out of the woodwork. The law as only just been changed back to give HMRC preference again. I am not an insolvency expert but get involved in the periphery and it really isn't the get out of jail card. It is interesting talking to those in that field that are Wednesday fans and what they think could happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grandad Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, mkowl said: Tbf he does have to put real money in somewhere. That is why at July 2018 the loan stood at 80m. I suspect but don't actually know that the plan would be to put the real money into S3 Ltd to then repay the intercompany loan 8m per year for the stadium. He is still putting in money but there may be shuffling as to which legal entity it goes into and how this then flows between them I thought it was £6m a year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 Just now, Grandad said: Where have you got that from?? The bit about the loan was from one of the Q & A sessions that DC said. The legal charge is on public record So the latter is independent evidence, the former i don't know of course. The accounts will or should disclose something about now secured creditors if that is the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itchy Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 Can’t see anybody taking Wednesday into administration other than HMRC , and that would be for employers national insurance contributions and employees contributions and income tax which they are responsible for collecting. It comes to nearly whopping 50 percent of the players income although Wednesday are on directly responsible for 12.8 % they still have to fined the cash when there is very little income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mkowl Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Grandad said: I thought it was £6m a year? It said paid over 8 years so I guess 7.5m a year But the rent the other way would offset the loan repayment presumably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewswfc Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Kew Owl said: I can’t see HMRC being too concerned about that somehow. On the other hand, one would like to think that any new owner would want to start off with the fans on side and would therefore honour existing season ticket obligations, refunds etc - even if the money had to come out of his own pocket If they didn't they'd never see another penny of my money and I presume several thousand fans monies either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grandad Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 minute ago, mkowl said: The bit about the loan was from one of the Q & A sessions that DC said. The legal charge is on public record So the latter is independent evidence, the former i don't know of course. The accounts will or should disclose something about now secured creditors if that is the case The only word we have on this is from the Chairman, who intimated it was a loan that he didn't know about when he bought the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Scarlett Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 31 minutes ago, Owling with laughter said: But no money has been transferred anywhere, why would a finance company be involved. It’s all a paper exercise isn’t it? There’s no £60m, it doesn’t exist. He’s supposed to be paying for it at £8m? a year, that’ll be another paper exercise. Just shuffling figures around from fake company to fake company. Some might understand the expression " Robbing Peter to pay Paul" Similar to using one credit card to make payments on another credit card. In theory it works for a limited time. But accrued interest and other penalty's ( admin charges ) gradually increase the balances untill the whole scheme collapses. Chansiri is just buying time until something turns up. This is going to end in a very bad way I feel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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