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SWFC Supporters' Trust Reports on Ticketing and Refunds


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4 minutes ago, Binky Griptite said:

 

I think what people have been saying is that performances aren't guaranteed but that in theory charging more means spending more means heightened chance of success.

 

Theres an overlap in so much as you can spend tens of millions and still have a crap season if your transfer policy is awful (this is familiar), conversely you can spend nothing and have a great season if your transfers are great. However more money to spend allied to a good transfer policy will have an increased likelihood of ending in promotion. The ceiling of expected performance shifts and a great season doesn't become a flirtation with the play-offs (as was deemed a great season under Stuart Gray / Milan) but rather promotion. Conversely a crap season under Gray / Milan would have been finishing rock bottom with single digit points and a middling performance would have been 15th to 20th, which is now seen as a disastrous season.

 

image.png.c926034d52cf7a76270e20783ad985d2.png

 

I think what I'm trying to say is the ticket prices themselves are not necessarily the issue, the issue is that what we are doing with the revenue is at present poor - mitigating past mistakes / more poor recruitment - and this is making people focus on the ticket prices. As others have said the time to question ticket prices was when we were doing well... undoubtedly a lot of people were doing that but also a lot of others thought the direction the club was going in was great... two play-off campaigns = brilliant.

 

As in all facets of life success is often fleeting, because successes adjust your premise of what constitutes success  whereas you pay for your mistakes for a loooong, miserable time.

 

 

 

I see


Thank you mate that makes perfect sense and I agree with you


I've now changed my stance from wanting the ticket pricing lowered to CHANSIRI OUT as a result

 

lol

 


 


Owlstalk Shop

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Hornsby said:

Chansiri is a car crash but take him over Bin Laden any day as a funder.

 

Or an owner whose family lops off head of journos they don't like.


 

Imagine that in 2021 this is the choice for Sheffield football fans tho

 

lol

 


 


Owlstalk Shop

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Hornsby said:

Chansiri is a car crash but take him over Bin Laden any day as a funder.

 

Or an owner whose family lops off head of journos they don't like.

Oh Dear 

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1 hour ago, Dot said:

you should knock up a table to go with this mate, then you could publish it as a "research paper". 🙂

 

We're more expensive than the vast majority off our peers. We're based in one of the less prosperous areas of the country.The chairman expressly stated he wanted to deter fans from doing to Hillsborough.  And to cap it all we are poo. 

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13 hours ago, sherlyegg said:

when the future looked bright many didn't give a foook how much it cost...more season ticket holders than any time in our history.

 

Just because people paid up doesn't mean they didn't care about price rises. And if people didn't care doesn't mean they were right not to care. 

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On 03/01/2021 at 22:07, room0035 said:

Dear God I was watching my team competing for the league, the cup and playing in Europe and I definitely was not paying the highest prices in the league.

 

Dave Richards brought us all this and he is slagged off. Can you think how they will think of, DC in a few years for one second division play off final and 4 years and counting of crap that could yet end in relegation.

 

The big earners could be gone next year, but DC mismanagement of the club won't be. How much are we wasting on not 1 not 2 but possible 3 lots of management teams in a season. Got to be a few more million wasted there, presumably this will end up being the fans fault too.


Just remind me how the Charterhouse deal panned out again

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26 minutes ago, hugeowl said:

Charterhouse lost all their money 


So it was good for the club then?

 

PS just pointing out its easy to look back with blue tinted glasses at the good old days, but the reality is somewhat different. 

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On 03/01/2021 at 17:34, SWFC Trust said:

Here's the full response from the Trust. 

 

Since Mr. Chansiri took over matchday and broadcast revenue has been brought together into one entry in the company accounts. To find out the true state of matchday and associated revenue at SWFC, and compare it with the figure provided for matchday and associated revenue at Nottingham Forest, you would need to strip broadcasting and EFL revenue from the SWFC figure for matchday income in the company accounts. As the company accounts are not as detailed as they used to be we acknowledge that determining the true state of matchday and associated revenue at Hillsborough is difficult. For that reason, we've used best guess estimates for matchday and associated revenue from reputable alternative sources (please see our report for references), and an accountant has made projections accordingly for 18/19 and 19/20 where the accounts are not currently available. We stand by those figures as the best available in the context of the lack of detail in the SWFC company accounts, and our conclusion that they are starting to plummet when judged against Mr. Chansiri's early reign. We discuss all of this in the text of the report. Finally, the club has seen our report, complimented us on its quality, and did not make any complaints about the figures we have quoted or their veracity. If they had of done so we would have amended our report accordingly.

 

Sounds a little bit like Albert Pierpoint being congratulated by the customer now laying on the marble slab !

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On 03/01/2021 at 17:34, SWFC Trust said:

Here's the full response from the Trust. 

 

Since Mr. Chansiri took over matchday and broadcast revenue has been brought together into one entry in the company accounts. To find out the true state of matchday and associated revenue at SWFC, and compare it with the figure provided for matchday and associated revenue at Nottingham Forest, you would need to strip broadcasting and EFL revenue from the SWFC figure for matchday income in the company accounts. As the company accounts are not as detailed as they used to be we acknowledge that determining the true state of matchday and associated revenue at Hillsborough is difficult. For that reason, we've used best guess estimates for matchday and associated revenue from reputable alternative sources (please see our report for references), and an accountant has made projections accordingly for 18/19 and 19/20 where the accounts are not currently available. We stand by those figures as the best available in the context of the lack of detail in the SWFC company accounts, and our conclusion that they are starting to plummet when judged against Mr. Chansiri's early reign. We discuss all of this in the text of the report. Finally, the club has seen our report, complimented us on its quality, and did not make any complaints about the figures we have quoted or their veracity. If they had of done so we would have amended our report accordingly.

They way the trust presents the figures is not exactly apples for apples with how SWFC does, so for a more accurate snapshot lets remove the catering from NFFC's figures, as ours don't include them and concentrate on what we can be confident on and what this thread is about, ie ticket prices.

 

image.png.aa12741406d9cd261fe4f1f89148482b.png

 

So if we concentrate on the 18/19 season and using the trusts projection, which appears accurate for our match day revenue, it highlights a big problem for us in adopting NFFC's pricing policy.

 

We had a total of 561, 867 fans attending generating £9,000,000, equaling an individual fan spend of £16.02 .

 

Forest had a total of 647,312 fans attending generating £7,200,000, equaling an individual fan spend of £11.12.

 

So, if we adopted the same ticking structure as they had,  anything less than a seasonal average of 35,189 would see our revenue drop.

 

Now you could argue that is dropping yearly anyway but even if managed to attract an average in the Championship of 30,000, something we've not done for 60 years, we still lose £1.4m off our match day revenue.

 

The next hurdle is, and Forest will find this out when fans attend, can we maintain those 30k crowds to make sure revenue doesn't drop even further meaning an even bigger reduction in player investment?

 

Looking from a financial point of view, which is what CC will do and with our current pricing policy, average crowds could drop to 19k and we'd still make more matchday revenue than NFFC.

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11 minutes ago, Mcguigan said:

They way the trust presents the figures is not exactly apples for apples with how SWFC does, so for a more accurate snapshot lets remove the catering from NFFC's figures, as ours don't include them and concentrate on what we can be confident on and what this thread is about, ie ticket prices.

 

image.png.aa12741406d9cd261fe4f1f89148482b.png

 

So if we concentrate on the 18/19 season and using the trusts projection, which appears accurate for our match day revenue, it highlights a big problem for us in adopting NFFC's pricing policy.

 

We had a total of 561, 867 fans attending generating £9,000,000, equaling an individual fan spend of £16.02 .

 

Forest had a total of 647,312 fans attending generating £7,200,000, equaling an individual fan spend of £11.12.

 

So, if we adopted the same ticking structure as they had,  anything less than a seasonal average of 35,189 would see our revenue drop.

 

Now you could argue that is dropping yearly anyway but even if managed to attract an average in the Championship of 30,000, something we've not done for 60 years, we still lose £1.4m off our match day revenue.

 

The next hurdle is, and Forest will find this out when fans attend, can we maintain those 30k crowds to make sure revenue doesn't drop even further meaning an even bigger reduction in player investment?

 

Looking from a financial point of view, which is what CC will do and with our current pricing policy, average crowds could drop to 19k and we'd still make more matchday revenue than NFFC.

 

This is very thorough it seems, thank you. I'll send it on to the author(s) and the Trust board, as again I think it deserves a more detailed response than I can quickly give now. I'll repeat the point from the report, though, that we're not suggesting that Wednesday adopt the Forest approach wholesale (or the Birmingham one)

 

"The case studies presented in these research papers are not intended as a perfect template that Sheffield Wednesday should adopt. Instead, they provide data and inspiration from which constructive recommendations are on offer to reform Sheffield Wednesday and make it ready for the post-Covid era. They are forward facing publications intended to contribute to debate about the vision for Sheffield Wednesday in the future."

It might be a rhetorical question - but do you think there is anything that SWFC could learn from other clubs who have increased attendance and revenue?

 

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1 hour ago, SWFC Trust said:

 

This is very thorough it seems, thank you. I'll send it on to the author(s) and the Trust board, as again I think it deserves a more detailed response than I can quickly give now. I'll repeat the point from the report, though, that we're not suggesting that Wednesday adopt the Forest approach wholesale (or the Birmingham one)

 

"The case studies presented in these research papers are not intended as a perfect template that Sheffield Wednesday should adopt. Instead, they provide data and inspiration from which constructive recommendations are on offer to reform Sheffield Wednesday and make it ready for the post-Covid era. They are forward facing publications intended to contribute to debate about the vision for Sheffield Wednesday in the future."

It might be a rhetorical question - but do you think there is anything that SWFC could learn from other clubs who have increased attendance and revenue?

 

You mean clubs that have reduced prices but increased attendances and revenue.

 

I bet there's not many.

 

Compare Forest again and their 14/15 & 18/19 season. Despite lowering ticket prices and increasing attendances by 4.5k they were £1m down on match day income.

 

So the bar is set for them now. to continue with the same £7.2m income for match day sales they'll need to continue to get average attendances of 28k+. Not sustainable in my opinion, so revenue will inevitably drop again.

 

The question again would be, from a business point of view £8.2m from 23.4k attending or £7.2k from 28k+ attending?

 

 

 

 

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Increased pricing would be easily palatable if:

 

1) The team was competing

2) The communication from the club wasn't as scummy towards our fans

3) The club engagement with fans improved considerably

4) Fans felt valued

5) The facilities were upgraded

 

 

 

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On 04/01/2021 at 09:25, Binky Griptite said:

 

I think what people have been saying is that performances aren't guaranteed but that in theory charging more means spending more means heightened chance of success.

 

Theres an overlap in so much as you can spend tens of millions and still have a crap season if your transfer policy is awful (this is familiar), conversely you can spend nothing and have a great season if your transfers are great. However more money to spend allied to a good transfer policy will have an increased likelihood of ending in promotion. The ceiling of expected performance shifts and a great season doesn't become a flirtation with the play-offs (as was deemed a great season under Stuart Gray / Milan) but rather promotion. Conversely a crap season under Gray / Milan would have been finishing rock bottom with single digit points and a middling performance would have been 15th to 20th, which is now seen as a disastrous season.

 

image.png.c926034d52cf7a76270e20783ad985d2.png

 

I think what I'm trying to say is the ticket prices themselves are not necessarily the issue, the issue is that what we are doing with the revenue is at present poor - mitigating past mistakes / more poor recruitment - and this is making people focus on the ticket prices. As others have said the time to question ticket prices was when we were doing well... undoubtedly a lot of people were doing that but also a lot of others thought the direction the club was going in was great... two play-off campaigns = brilliant.

 

As in all facets of life success is often fleeting, because successes adjust your premise of what constitutes success  whereas you pay for your mistakes for a loooong, miserable time.

 

Of course that makes people foucs on ticket prices - because we are paying the highest prices and the financial mismanagement is resulting in that high price not being reflective of what is being delivered.

 

If we pay high prices and get a high level of investment - as the club stated would continue to happen - and we lost out due purely to results then that to a large extent is football. 

When we are told we are paying high prices to support a promotion push and investment will continue yet what we have is a pale shadow of previous squads with little signs of progress in 4 years and a points deduction to deal with then fans are surely right to question why we pay more for this than anyone else.

 

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1 hour ago, @owlstalk said:

 

 

Increased pricing would be easily palatable if:

 

1) The team was competing

2) The communication from the club wasn't as scummy towards our fans

3) The club engagement with fans improved considerably

4) Fans felt valued

5) The facilities were upgraded

 

 

 

 

But apparently not doing any of this and still having the highest prices is OK because it is justifiable to pay for a 2-year promotion push 4 years after the event while we watch a side that is a shadow of its former self try to claw back a points deduction implemented due to the shambolic manner is which the finances have been managed. 

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1 hour ago, Mcguigan said:

You mean clubs that have reduced prices but increased attendances and revenue.

 

 

In a way it means that, but again at the risk of pre-empting the Birmingham City report - you'll see there that prices have reduced by only pennies (an average of 17p per ticket sold over five years). They offer a range of prices - some of which are higher than charged at Hillsborough. You've seen the Forest one. 

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3 hours ago, Mcguigan said:

They way the trust presents the figures is not exactly apples for apples with how SWFC does, so for a more accurate snapshot lets remove the catering from NFFC's figures, as ours don't include them and concentrate on what we can be confident on and what this thread is about, ie ticket prices.

 

image.png.aa12741406d9cd261fe4f1f89148482b.png

 

So if we concentrate on the 18/19 season and using the trusts projection, which appears accurate for our match day revenue, it highlights a big problem for us in adopting NFFC's pricing policy.

 

We had a total of 561, 867 fans attending generating £9,000,000, equaling an individual fan spend of £16.02 .

 

Forest had a total of 647,312 fans attending generating £7,200,000, equaling an individual fan spend of £11.12.

 

So, if we adopted the same ticking structure as they had,  anything less than a seasonal average of 35,189 would see our revenue drop.

 

Now you could argue that is dropping yearly anyway but even if managed to attract an average in the Championship of 30,000, something we've not done for 60 years, we still lose £1.4m off our match day revenue.

 

The next hurdle is, and Forest will find this out when fans attend, can we maintain those 30k crowds to make sure revenue doesn't drop even further meaning an even bigger reduction in player investment?

 

Looking from a financial point of view, which is what CC will do and with our current pricing policy, average crowds could drop to 19k and we'd still make more matchday revenue than NFFC.

Here's a fuller reply from the Trust.

"We stand by our figures. The report shows that there are other approaches to ticketing strategy which are successful on their own terms. These strategies should provoke a conversation about Sheffield Wednesday's approach. The report was peer reviewed by an academic (the Trust's Interim Chair) plus professional accountants. They had no issues with the figures presented for either SWFC or Nottingham Forest. 

We have taken your comments on board though. The Nottingham Forest paper will be revised to include a more rigorous discussion of the methodology used. We've also strengthened our peer-review process by including a further review by an academic from the Business Department at Sheffield Hallam University. This further review will take place on the Birmingham City paper before its publication along with all other future reports.

The Trust is an open and democratic organisation. In that vein, we would like to extend the opportunity to you to write a report with us on a subject of your choice. The Trust's overarching aim is "...to seek to engage in positive and constructive dialogue with the football club on issues that are of concern to its membership and the wider fanbase". We would work with you on any topic that fitted that aim. "

 

Can't say fairer than that I think 🙂

 

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2 hours ago, Mcguigan said:

You mean clubs that have reduced prices but increased attendances and revenue.

 

I bet there's not many.

 

 

 

Not sure theres many people advocating Wednesday knock 1/3 off their ticket prices like Forest have


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47 minutes ago, Grandad said:

 

Not sure theres many people advocating Wednesday knock 1/3 off their ticket prices like Forest have

Bet you'd be surprised. 

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On 03/01/2021 at 15:20, @owlstalk said:

 

 

 

I still laugh every time that someone says 'well it's proven that cheap tickets doesn't work as Chansiri has tried it and it's not done a thing' 


After we offer a fiver off to watch the most unappealing game of the season and not even bothered to promote it

 

lol

 

Always makes me laugh that one

 

And 90+% of ticket sales are early bird season tickets, which are the cheapest way to watch Wednesday despite still being way too expensive for the reduced quality of football that we have had to watch. I have said it several times, but we are are far worse off now football wise and club wise, than when DC first walked in the door. 

 

Apart from those two wonder seasons under Carlos where we finished 6th then 4th and one season where we finished one place higher (12th), we finished higher in the table under Stuart Gray (13th) and played better, more exciting football under him than under any of the managers since Carlos left. Carlos only left because DC had blown the full player kitty for the next few years on thin air, with 11-13 first team (two were first team replacements) players missing through injury, or unknown circumstances! We then took on Jos with no money to spend on our still injured/absent players and spent 2 out of the next 3 seasons in 16th position with us looking lucky to get that high this season! Remembering that DC put the season tickets up to their ridiculously high new prices from their previous low prices before he had even started signing new players, apart from a couple of clangers that rarely played for us, disappearing back off to obscurity!

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