@owlstalk Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, Jamie_W said: So can we list seasons where he had successful sides instead then? Again - you could do that with pretty much any manager Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleSeven Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Championship and league one are full of journeyman managers. It’s inevitable. There are 24 championship clubs and 24 league 1 clubs. Only three clubs go up each season from each division so of course it is full of journeymen. Anyone who works in any industry will see the same faces popping up at different companies over time. I’ve worked with the same bloke three times at three different companies. It follows football will broadly be similar given that it’s a business and there are limited numbers of available candidates and jobs. I think Monk’s failure was rooted in his coaching skills. It felt to me that he could see what he wanted to do but could not get the players to do it or see what to do when things were not going to plan. Coaching skills can improve and I suppose so can Garry. At some point he will pop up again at a club who need to roll the dice on someone new and there is a limited crop of available managers. Good luck to him, if he learns from what went wrong he might do a better job for a different club. As to the ‘point of the thread’ debate it’s given me something to think about so that will do for me 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, CircleSeven said: Championship and league one are full of journeyman managers. It’s inevitable. There are 24 championship clubs and 24 league 1 clubs. Only three clubs go up each season from each division so of course it is full of journeymen. Anyone who works in any industry will see the same faces popping up at different companies over time. I’ve worked with the same bloke three times at three different companies. It follows football will broadly be similar given that it’s a business and there are limited numbers of available candidates and jobs. I think Monk’s failure was rooted in his coaching skills. It felt to me that he could see what he wanted to do but could not get the players to do it or see what to do when things were not going to plan. Coaching skills can improve and I suppose so can Garry. At some point he will pop up again at a club who need to roll the dice on someone new and there is a limited crop of available managers. Good luck to him, if he learns from what went wrong he might do a better job for a different club. As to the ‘point of the thread’ debate it’s given me something to think about so that will do for me You make some excellent points there At the end of the day all managers are learning and works in progress and most will ultimately never get promoted at all ever in their entire careers. Criticising Monk's record is one thing, but understanding that someone gave/gives him a job when he has that record is perhaps the more relevant point to look at Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionel Fessi Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Don’t care anymore. Ultimately all managers ‘fail’ if there at a club long enough. Monk has been very fortunate considering he’s relatively new to the managerial world he’s already managed a handful of top club with big fan bases and even bigger expectations. If I were a chairmen looking to bring him in you’d surely have to look closely at how he performed in his short spells with promotion chasing teams us, Leeds and Middlesborough. All ended poorly with no success and left the teams in a worse position than before he took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyowl Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 5 clubs in 4 years and sacked from 4 of them. That wouldn't happen to a good manager! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleSeven Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 minute ago, @owlstalk said: You make some excellent points there At the end of the day all managers are learning and works in progress and most will ultimately never get promoted at all ever in their entire careers. Criticising Monk's record is one thing, but understanding that someone gave/gives him a job when he has that record is perhaps the more relevant point to look at Indeed. I actually used to specialise in recruiting people who had failed in certain jobs with a view to making them a success elsewhere at essentially the same job. The key was looking at if the people could understand why they had failed and isolate what they needed to do to succeed in future and then supporting them with that. If Garry can figure out what went wrong and then do some work on those areas and even mitigate the weakness he should be able to get himself a job at some point. People give jobs to people who failed elsewhere because they hope they will have improved since their failure or believe the circumstances that lead to the failure don’t exist at this job. Unless you in the prem (and even then you’ve got to be a top half side) you are broadly recruiting from a pool of people with patchy careers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIGHERSTATE Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 hours ago, ArmchairOwl said: 41 though and fired that many times, prolly not cut out for management. Says the man in his armchair (sorry couldnt resist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack the Hat Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 IMO Monk was the worst and least effective manager we have had since Eustace - worse even than Jos. I would be surprised if he got another gig above league 1. But if he does, good luck to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, Jack the Hat said: IMO Monk was the worst and least effective manager we have had since Eustace - worse even than Jos. I would be surprised if he got another gig above league 1. But if he does, good luck to him. What's coming to light now is that Chansiri just never seemed to trust him from the second he walked through the door He didn't bring his own team, he wasn't really allowed a budget, Chansiri speaks after he left about really needing a manager who can tell him the real situation including all the negatives and things going wrong (although whether a wealthy person really does mean that is another thing) But to me it seems in retrospect a very strange appointment. Either way nobody can ever accuse me of not giving the manager 100% support as a Wednesday fan I wonder how it came about that Monk came here, and why Chansiri went with the idea? 1 Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parajack Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Owls Loyal said: A lot of criticism was voiced by others when I pointed out last March pre-lockdown that Monk was fired by Swansea, fired by Boro and fired by Brum and should be fired by us.. That was fine because this Site is all about different opinions. However I will be surprised if Monk is offered another Prem/Championhip job. Is he cut out to manage at League 1/2 level? Not convinced personally that he would cut it there. He is the Emperor's Clothes. That summary could apply to just about every manager who has been around for long enough.....its what football management is all about.....what do you think Pulis record is like? even 'the best managers get sacked,Alf Ramsey won the World Cup,..than got sacked.....(when he didnt win it again!) Lets look at our current manager,as an example....Left the 'Gills' after a disagreement with Paul Scally,sacked by Portsmouth, sacked by stoke(ist time around) than left 'by mutual consent' second time around......sacked by West brom,sacked by Boro....left Crystal palace after one season.....Like monk he has a mixture of success & alleged 'failure' & sackings in his career.....thats Football... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Bonvin Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 17 minutes ago, CircleSeven said: I actually used to specialise in recruiting people who had failed in certain jobs with a view to making them a success elsewhere at essentially the same job. Can I send you my CV? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parajack Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, @owlstalk said: What's coming to light now is that Chansiri just never seemed to trust him from the second he walked through the door He didn't bring his own team, he wasn't really allowed a budget, Chansiri speaks after he left about really needing a manager who can tell him the real situation including all the negatives and things going wrong (although whether a wealthy person really does mean that is another thing) But to me it seems in retrospect a very strange appointment. Either way nobody can ever accuse me of not giving the manager 100% support as a Wednesday fan I wonder how it came about that Monk came here, and why Chansiri went with the idea? Maybe monk was a perfectly good appointment,but was allegedly unable (unwilling?)to cope eventually with the combination of factors he found at S6?..... Jos couldnt,Bullen allegedly struggled in my view,Bruce didnt fancy it,and left.....& now monk.....not just one manager is it?....if Pulis struggles too,do we ask for another manager? or do we (eventually) start asking why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parajack Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 36 minutes ago, CircleSeven said: Championship and league one are full of journeyman managers. It’s inevitable. There are 24 championship clubs and 24 league 1 clubs. Only three clubs go up each season from each division so of course it is full of journeymen. Anyone who works in any industry will see the same faces popping up at different companies over time. I’ve worked with the same bloke three times at three different companies. It follows football will broadly be similar given that it’s a business and there are limited numbers of available candidates and jobs. I think Monk’s failure was rooted in his coaching skills. It felt to me that he could see what he wanted to do but could not get the players to do it or see what to do when things were not going to plan. Coaching skills can improve and I suppose so can Garry. At some point he will pop up again at a club who need to roll the dice on someone new and there is a limited crop of available managers. Good luck to him, if he learns from what went wrong he might do a better job for a different club. As to the ‘point of the thread’ debate it’s given me something to think about so that will do for me This is so true, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesteel Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 I was a fan of monk before he came here and don’t really have any issue with him other than the task here was perhaps too big. His record at home in particular wasn’t excusable and whatever happened that Xmas will probably be a lesson for him. He said the right things and was clearly a thinker and into his player psychology but maybe ended up a bit like Irvine where it all ended up cancelling itself out and was generally flat even if the team was still working hard for him. As i said in the Pulis thread some clubs like quieter coaches who get on with things and know their stuff. But for what ever reason swfc needs someone with a bit of character to bring the sizeable institution under control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack the Hat Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, @owlstalk said: What's coming to light now is that Chansiri just never seemed to trust him from the second he walked through the door He didn't bring his own team, he wasn't really allowed a budget, Chansiri speaks after he left about really needing a manager who can tell him the real situation including all the negatives and things going wrong (although whether a wealthy person really does mean that is another thing) But to me it seems in retrospect a very strange appointment. Either way nobody can ever accuse me of not giving the manager 100% support as a Wednesday fan I wonder how it came about that Monk came here, and why Chansiri went with the idea? I agree. Chansiri seems to go with managers - support - not support - support - not support - support. You definitely gave him your support and I tried too, but it was hard. I got the playing from the back quickly with wingers - I bought into the concept 100%. But I never felt he knew what he was doing. He had a plan but had no clue how to get there. The players we bought were just random splatterings - like Carlos second season, rather than addressing deficiencies. He never knew his best team, either last season (with a better squad) or this season with the new squad. He obviously couldn't manage Westwood or Hutch - which a decent manager would have. His tactics were baffling. His game plan seemed to be waste the first hour and try to win it in the last 30 - which worked the first half of last season. And that's before we get onto his suicidal substitutions. I have never known a manager effect a game adversely - so consistently with his substitutions.This is why we conceded late on so often - it wasn't a fluke. I wish him all the best but I am so glad he has gone. I just can't think of any positives from his time here. He may have had a rough deal but Jos was more hamstrung with injuries and also suffered from lack of support, but at least he got players like FF and Nuhui performing and finished his first season with 20 points from 10 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freshfish Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) I don’t know of any other business or industry where failure is so public and yet you get paid to leave and then get offered more work on the past history of failing. It’s just plain foooking weird and nonsensical... Edited November 17, 2020 by Freshfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Freshfish said: I don’t know of any other business or industry where failure is so public and yet you get paid to leave and then get offered more work on the past history of failing. It’s just plain foooking weird and nonsensical... In other businesses the idea of 'failure' would be the business losing money, or maybe overspending As far as 'managing' a football club is concerned, if Garry Monk shed millions off the wage bill and kept the club in the division that would appear very very attractive indeed to other chairmen and even a great success Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleSeven Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, @owlstalk said: In other businesses the idea of 'failure' would be the business losing money, or maybe overspending As far as 'managing' a football club is concerned, if Garry Monk shed millions off the wage bill and kept the club in the division that would appear very very attractive indeed to other chairmen and even a great success That is true and probably will be Garry’s pitch at his next interview! The big challenge with Football as a business is the pesky fans with their constant moaning about not getting promoted and not having any goals to cheer! In many businesses just not going bankrupt every year is a success. In football 91% of teams ‘fail’ every year! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@owlstalk Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, CircleSeven said: That is true and probably will be Garry’s pitch at his next interview! I actually think it will The same way that Pulis says 'I never got relegated' but fails to mention the state of the clubs he left behind him when he was fired or left them. Owlstalk Shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleSeven Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 minute ago, @owlstalk said: I actually think it will The same way that Pulis says 'I never got relegated' but fails to mention the state of the clubs he left behind him when he was fired or left them. Following up from the themes of my other posts I hope Pulis has developed as a manager and not only doesn’t take us down but leaves us in a better state than he finds us. Hope is often the triumph of desire over logic so I won’t hold my breath but will keep my finger crossed for the next couple of years! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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