Time to scrap the SWFC Academy

[BlueBloodedOwl]

2 hours ago, Swiss Toni said:

The problem we have in our area are that both Sheffield United and Leeds United have academies that have a strong history of producing players who go on to bigger and better things.

 

Until we can match that (probably we never will) then our academy doesn’t serve us well in its current guise.

 

Not sure what the answer is though.

I would add Barnsley to that list as well.

[Jim]

I think DC could do a lot worse than decide to take a longer term approach and invest in the Academy including facilities and infrastructure but at the end of the day it’s his money not mine.

 

I do wonder if allowing Monk what from the outside looking in seems to be a free reign then this will indeed become part of any future plans if the current youngsters make a name for themselves. As I said in an earlier post there appears to be a whiff of the Big Jack era all over again when some local lads including some Wednesday Fans made the breakthrough.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Jim

[ny owl]

10 minutes ago, Owls Loyal said:

I appreciate that many have an emotional attachment to the Academy but Ny Owl's point still stands.

 

SWFC's Academy has not produced a top tier player in 40 years.

 

I shudder at the times I have heard the phrase "We have got some talented youngsters coming through".

 

Anyone here remember the name Simmons.  Well, he was billed as the next Jimmy Greaves and he ended up in Non League football!

 

We even heard it under Luhukay two years ago.

 

He launched the likes of Baker, Preston and Kirby and now not one of them is even playing at League One level.

 

Also please consider that DFB is a classic example of what I am proposing.  We should scout the fall out of young players with high potential around Europe at 18+ years and bring them to our Elite Developmenmt Squad.

There are three options

1. Carry on trying to develop weak players in poor facilities - hasn't worked and no reason to think that will work

2. Invest in the academy - requires significant spend over many years and not certain to work because we are at the back of the line for really talented kids

3. Pick up PL cast offs - like we did with Brunt and Whelan - develop them, sell them, get promoted and use some of the money to invest in option 2.  

[Bulldog]

3 hours ago, matthefish2002 said:

 

For a club Brentfords size that is a noteworthy achievement. Also came within 90 mins of being a Premier League Club a few months ago.
Probably equivalent for Wednesday would be get promoted and qualify for Europe within next 4-5 years.

But I shake my head at the thoughts of scrapping the academy. I agree with reforming it but getting rid of it all together!?!?

We have a duty to try and find local talent. Club already has less and less to do with local people as it is.

 

I agree its a marvellous achievement but let's not use them as a benchmark to try and level with.

I also concur that scrapping the academy is a ridiculous idea.

[alanharper]

52 minutes ago, Owls Loyal said:

I appreciate that many have an emotional attachment to the Academy but Ny Owl's point still stands.

 

SWFC's Academy has not produced a top tier player in 40 years.

 

I shudder at the times I have heard the phrase "We have got some talented youngsters coming through".

 

Anyone here remember the name Simmons.  Well, he was billed as the next Jimmy Greaves and he ended up in Non League football!

 

We even heard it under Luhukay two years ago.

 

He launched the likes of Baker, Preston and Kirby and now not one of them is even playing at League One level.

 

Also please consider that DFB is a classic example of what I am proposing.  We should scout the fall out of young players with high potential around Europe at 18+ years and bring them to our Elite Developmenmt Squad.

 

Well it doesn't really stand, because the fact that a number of players as stated in this thread have come through our youth set up in the last 40 years and gone on to play Premier League football instantly disproves the statement "SWFC's academy has not produced a top tier player in 40 years".

 

[Owls Loyal]

Once again I tyhink NY Owl hits the nail onb the head:

 

"Carry on trying to develop weak players in poor facilities - hasn't worked and no reason to think that will work."

[james o connor]

We are stuffed due to poor running of the club and will quite likely be in league 1. I think is time to back the youth . They could be important next year 

[Stan Dupowls]

Quite simply to attract the best young kids you need the best facilities. Permanent buildings, a Cafe for the parents Etc (who decide where their kids go and have to wait for them) , impressive aura about the place. Infrastructure. Derby, Leeds, the Pigs etc all have better facilities .....and our small site also is cramping the First Team down there. Needs a new site or a second site to help both the Academy and the first team (an immediate benefit). It’s a sound investment in your club as they add value. 

[sswwffccc]

The best Academy product for the last 10 years has been liam palmer and albeit a good servant is an average championship player that could have been replaced on a free multiple times with players like Andy Yiadom 

 

Brentford reason for the move to a elite squad was that top clubs find it so easy to poach the countries best talent, making it so hard to produce top players. 

 

The likes of shaw and brennan look on a similar level to preston, kirby and baker all who are now barely even getting a game in league football and a lower level defensivly than thorniley who barely makes the bench in league 1 

 

The signing of youngsters like dele bashiru and adedoyin is a better and cheaper route than funding all ages, creating a squad of players that we can pick up like them two would be a far better route to take 

[Guest Smackavolley]

1 hour ago, Jonestown83 said:

A lot of lower league teams scrapped their academies around 5 years ago due to the rule change that was introduced

this basically allowed premier league teams to come in and sign their good youngsters for peanuts I believe the figure was something like 150k max for any academy players 
 

brentford made the decision at the time that it made financial sense to just sign players a little older and work from there which they’ve done very successfully many others have failed miserably.
 

theres currently around 35 academies operating  which means over half the teams in the football league are operating the “Brentford” model I can’t remember any other success stories in regards this approach 

we seem to have moved more to the bit of both worlds approach bringing in released players from premier league teams. which I feel is the right way to go however with youth players I think it’s 90% luck if any of them go onto make it. 
 

if you look back over the England u17 teams over the last 20 years 75% of them you’ve never even heard of but at that time where considered the most promising In the country there’s no surefire route to success with youth but we seem to be moving in the right direction 

 

 

 

 

Where have you got your numbers or info from? 

 

Currently there are 26 Category 1, 18 Category 2 teams operating.

 

Vast majority of other teams are Category 3. Only a handful of Cat 4 teams are operating with U17 teams and above.

 

 

Strange people have jumped on this subject at a time we have the likes of Hunt, Shaw, Waldock, Grant, Brennan, Hagan etc. potentially knocking on the door. There's every chance, someone will finally break through. If in 18 months, this proves to be a false dawn then fair enough but I wouldn't be too hasty in following the Brentford model just yet. It works for them because there are a number of top academies in London. Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Fulham.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Smackavolley

[S72 Owl]

3 hours ago, soldierboyblue said:

This model has worked really well for Huddersfield and their first team is full of youth products. Oh hang on. Our academy is beginning to produce it's now up to the youngsters to prove themselves good enough of first team football and the manager to allow them the route to first team football. The early indicators of both are very positive

It’s saved Huddersfield millions per season and one of there young players was about to sign for Burnley for 6 million recently until he got injured. 

 

[Guest Smackavolley]

3 hours ago, Swiss Toni said:

The problem we have in our area are that both Sheffield United and Leeds United have academies that have a strong history of producing players who go on to bigger and better things.

 

Until we can match that (probably we never will) then our academy doesn’t serve us well in its current guise.

 

Not sure what the answer is though.

 

Someone added Barnsley to these two.

 

I think we have been preoccupied with trying to win the U18 development league every year. Those three teams are usually strong but you see a lot more of their youngsters playing in U23 fixtures when they're 17yo and in some cases 16yo. The results shouldn't matter. The club should be focusing on bringing talent through as soon as they can and give them experience.

 

Just my opinion. 

[shezzas left peg]

3 hours ago, Quist said:

For a number of years our Academy was run down and did not produce. However it has now started to function again and we have seen several players show promise whilst playing for the side.

It has to be realised that turning an Academy round is not an overnight thing. It takes years for players to come through. In addition the Academy at one point had bad reputation which would have deterred some individuals coming to Academy. The myth is still being a  bad Academy is still peddled by some including in this thread. There has been steady improvement and making statements which are based on situation many years does not help the club in attracting good players to the Academy. The quality of coaching has improved enormously and players we are producing are much better than was the case a few years ago. 

Another point which was made about the loss of reserve team football is also a factor. The stripping out of top level Academies to play in their own league also denies the lads of playing against better opposition. This will slow development of players we produce. When we can move to top grade of Academy would hope to see us progress again.

Brentford spend a fortune on scouting and recruit players at 18/20 from all over Europe it is a model which works well for them. They moved away from Academy structure as they were competing with Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham West Ham etc for talent and although lots in area much of it was picked over by time Brentford had its say. Hence there situationis muchdifferent to ours.

I think we are in a rich catchment area (United and Leeds have demonstrated this) and although we have to compete with the Manchester clubs. Their Academies do recruit a substantial quantity of players including overseas talent Which has led to young lads leaving them to seek future elsewhere. This willnot be lost on those seeking future in game and we regularly snap up players from City. If you are a young 15 year old with talent you should want to go to a club that will give you a chance to play football at first team level.

Think before criticising some understaning of Academy and current position needs to be looked at.

Generally what I was trying to say, but far more eloquently put bud. 

[airborne_rat_of_s6]

5 hours ago, Bulldog said:

That fascination with Brentford again. A team that's spent the last 12 years in the championship (after promotion from league one) yes, a fine example to follow.

How long have we been back in the Championship? Who has just been deducted 12 points? Who hasn’t got a pot to pee in?

[Guest Therealrealist]

5 hours ago, room0035 said:

What team does young George Hirst and Jamie Vardy play for again. 

 

Within one hour of Sheffield there is 12 million people the failing on the youth team is down to the succession of chairman under investing it in, instead trying for the quick fix or bring in other team casts off and of course the Wednesday way why employ qualified recognised coaches when we can bring in ex players who know as much about coaching as selling house.

 

No what the youth system needs is investment - something that can be a much as you want as is exempt for the P&S calculation, we need proper qualified coaches and we need to start looking for kids to play for us from the Sheffield area, not Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle or Birmingham. Until we tap into the local market we will continue to produce little to nothing for the first team. its not as if there is another football team just 5 or 6 miles away that for the last 10-15 years has made £50-60m on sales of young local talent.

There isnt 12 million people within an hour of sheffield..that looks like a seriously made up 'fact'

[Utah Owl]

41 minutes ago, Therealrealist said:

There isnt 12 million people within an hour of sheffield..that looks like a seriously made up 'fact'

There probably is. All of the following:

Leeds metro area nearly 3 million

Manchester metro area nearly 3 million

Nottingham metro area 1.5 million

Sheffield metro area 1.6 million

 

North eastern part of Birmingham metro area is within an hours drive as also are York, Hull, Lincoln, Potteries etc. so 12 million is probably about right.

 

[Utah Owl]

As far as the OP goes getting rid of the Academy just as it's showing real signs of promise?

 

Methinks a fishing expedition is underway.

[Inspector Lestrade]

6 minutes ago, Utah Owl said:

There probably is. All of the following:

Leeds metro area nearly 3 million

Manchester metro area nearly 3 million

Nottingham metro area 1.5 million

Sheffield metro area 1.6 million

 

North eastern part of Birmingham metro area is within an hours drive as also are York, Hull, Lincoln, Potteries etc. so 12 million is probably about right.

 

 

And Rotherham don't forget about Rotherham.

[Utah Owl]

9 minutes ago, Inspector Lestrade said:

 

And Rotherham don't forget about Rotherham.

Why, are they taking a coach?

[Bulldog]

1 hour ago, airborne_rat_of_s6 said:

How long have we been back in the Championship? Who has just been deducted 12 points? Who hasn’t got a pot to pee in?

1. Just over 8 years.

2. We have.

3. Winnie the Pooh cos it's full of honey.

Answer 3 might be dodgy but I thought you'd have know the first 2.