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Lees form has certainly dipped but he’s not as bad as people are making out . He became number one target when the half wits realised fox wasn’t that bad after all . Bizarre fan base hammering a defender who could still play a big part for us , yet pining for a past it, crocked goalkeeper who has no future here or anywhere else .

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Lees still qualify for me. 
He could make a great pairing with Dunkley. 
Not sure the 3 at the back suits him however. 
Let’s wait and see. 

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19 hours ago, Ante's Bubbly said:

 

Big Ron brought a different type of football to Hillsborough after the hard working dour style of footy that came just before it and I loved the team that played under Big Ron during that period. He was lucky enough to have a good nucleus of players and added his own players into the mix to make it even better. He was a huge likeable character full of charisma and the press loved him, treated him well and always wanted to be on his good side. However, once win percentages are analysed over a large enough number of samples they cannot be ignored and then whether you like a one manager more than another manager should not come into it.

 

Similarly with the player ratings. I stuck up for Tom Lees all season, because he had an injury and a bad virus, which he had to play on with because quite frankly the rest of the defence are a bunch of dozy so and so's. Borner, Iorfa, Palmer and Odubajo can all have good spells in games, but all go walk about and go missing at vital points in games when, unfortunately teams tend to score goals against us. Although I applaud Iorfa's speed nearly every game, I pull out what remains of my hair at the number of times that he gets way out of position at critical times. Fans voted him their player of the season despite the fact that he is a defender and cannot tackle at all without using his hands! He and Odubajo are two of the worst defenders I can remember seeing for getting hold of attackers every time and for getting pulled out of position. Palmer switches off several times a game when he should be concentrating even harder and all three of them are prone to make costly mistakes which lead to crucial goals being scored against us. Julian Borner can be a star at times, but his lack of mobility and lack of stamina also weakens our defence in games where the attackers are good enough to expose such weaknesses.

 

Tom Lees had a very bad season by his standards and had a couple of games when he performed badly, but at least he is capable of playing at a much higher level all through a game and sticking to the job he is given, which the other three are not. Like Jack Charlton said, he is not a brilliant player himself, but he is very good at stopping brilliant players from playing. The fact that Tom Lees had such a bad season last year and still had far better stats than his team mates says more about the poor standards set by the rest of the players. A poor Tom Lees is still better than the rest of our defenders over a season and unless a few of them have brain transplants I cannot see that changing any time soon.

 

My point bud was that statistics alone do not tell the whole tale. I try to take a balanced view and take different evidence into account. 

 

As for Tom Lees I do get what your saying, but he's not been the same player he was since he gained the arm band.  I don't know if you watch the England cricket but they had a few players who once they became captain their own game suffered terribly due to the burden of captaincy, weight of expectation, not being able to focus on their own performance. 

Nassar Hussain and cookie most notably their form with the bat really suffered. It could be a similar thing with Lees, maybe it's time to get a proper captain in and just let Lees focus on his own game again as I'm sure he'll improve. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, bladeshater said:

Another negative thread

Why do you expect so much positivity? In fact why dont you tell us all the positive things that are goin on at the moment.go on..make a list or summat

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2 minutes ago, Therealrealist said:

Why do you expect so much positivity? In fact why dont you tell us all the positive things that are goin on at the moment.go on..make a list or summat

Fresh management team

One or two disruptive influences moved on

Chairman still backing the club

 

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3 hours ago, shezzas left peg said:

My point bud was that statistics alone do not tell the whole tale. I try to take a balanced view and take different evidence into account. 

 

As for Tom Lees I do get what your saying, but he's not been the same player he was since he gained the arm band.  I don't know if you watch the England cricket but they had a few players who once they became captain their own game suffered terribly due to the burden of captaincy, weight of expectation, not being able to focus on their own performance. 

Nassar Hussain and cookie most notably their form with the bat really suffered. It could be a similar thing with Lees, maybe it's time to get a proper captain in and just let Lees focus on his own game again as I'm sure he'll improve. 

 

 

 

I totally agree that statistics alone do not tell the full story, but it is a bit of a cliche now because everybody should know that by now anyway. The fact is that whether or not unassuming characters like Tom Lees, that just go about their jobs (& tidying up other peoples mistakes and doing things quietly without any fuss or panic) get the recognition that they deserve, the contributions that these players make is undeniable when you compare their stats, over a reasonable period of games, with those of similar players during the same, or a similar period of games.

 

The fact that Tom Lees is very proud of the honour of being given the captaincy, but did not want to be captain, is not entirely comfortable in that position and is ready to step down as soon as a better candidate comes along is another plus for Tom as a player, because he knows that he is not the most vocal of players, but he still has the respect of the majority of the players, which again says more about the rest of the players, that Tom is still, or up until the latest arrivals, was still the best candidate for the job. I think it is a very special kind of player that can take on the captaincy without impairing their own game to some extent, trying to do too much, taking responsibility and making split second decisions that other people should be making, if only they had proper footballers brains. We have a few players who can read the game properly like, Lee did, Reach does, Bannan does, but acting on that kind of instinct yourself and getting other players to pick up on, or respond to those subtle dynamic changes that determine whether you commit to an attacking or defensive formation, are very different things. We seem to have too many players in midfield, defence and attack, that constantly need telling what to do and what not to do, which for professional footballers is not good. I remember a time when the only player on the pitch that needed that kind of captaining was JJ! Great pace and occasionally a great shot, pass or cross, but he would so often do the wrong thing or just wander about like a lost soul. Recently we have had up to four, or five players like that in the team at a time and there is no single captain in the league that can sort all that sloppiness out.

 

Successful teams have players all over the pitch that are willing and able to make more good decisions than bad decisions and encourage others to join in, but unfortunately, over the years we have had less and less of those kinds of players. I am sure that Tom can play pretty much near his best while wearing the captains armband, but I am also certain that if the quality of the defenders alongside him improves, or if another captain is appointed, his overall game will improve even more.  It will be interesting to see how Chey fits in with everything, but prior to his arrival, in my opinion, Tom Lees has still been our best defender, despite the low quality around him and I am pleased to see that my opinion and perception of him is backed up with facts, rather than just a rose tinted view of him. I think he will personally have a much better season this season, just by Chey being at the club, but I do think we could do with at least one other proper fullback and another centre half. 

 

 

Edited by Ante's Bubbly
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Judging players Is obviously subjective as everyone values different things. Stats very rarely show the full picture of a player, Iniesta for example never really had amazing stats for goals and assists but was a fabulous player. 
 

When looking at our players and how effective they are I imagine they were being offered on a free transfer to every club in the league on the caveat that the buying club had to pay the weekly wage the player is currently on and then wonder how many clubs would take that player on.
With lees and KW I would imagine that number to be <5 clubs and that’s being generous. 

Bannan Iorfa and a couple of others I think most clubs would take them. 

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Tom Lees is more of a blocker than a tackler.

With blocking you give less fouls away and don't leave yourself stranded but you are more likely to concede a higher position as you back track.

It can also give you a bit more time for other players to get back and help.

With a vocal keeper it is a better way of defending as players want you to commit to the tackle so they can draw a foul.

He's also solid in the air, even if he cannot win the ball he will do enough to put the players off.

 

Loovens was more of a blocker to, the defensive line kept it's shape mostly and it showed.

 

However Iorfa and especially Borner get drawn to the ball to try and pinch it. Giving fouls away or getting caught out of position. Iorfa has the pace to recover, Borner doesn't.

Given that both can be caught out, the defensive line stops being a line and is easy to exploit.

 

Playing against us last season any ball just had to go Borners side for the majority of the time because he will come and leave a massive gap behind him. Iorfa had to cover a lot and had the pace to do so. Lees not so much then depending if Palmer was ambling back a huge are would appear on our right hand side.

Pass up near Borner, a quick return, through ball in behind.

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13 hours ago, DobbinTheDonkey said:

Tom Lees is more of a blocker than a tackler.

With blocking you give less fouls away and don't leave yourself stranded but you are more likely to concede a higher position as you back track.

It can also give you a bit more time for other players to get back and help.

With a vocal keeper it is a better way of defending as players want you to commit to the tackle so they can draw a foul.

He's also solid in the air, even if he cannot win the ball he will do enough to put the players off.

 

Loovens was more of a blocker to, the defensive line kept it's shape mostly and it showed.

 

However Iorfa and especially Borner get drawn to the ball to try and pinch it. Giving fouls away or getting caught out of position. Iorfa has the pace to recover, Borner doesn't.

Given that both can be caught out, the defensive line stops being a line and is easy to exploit.

 

Playing against us last season any ball just had to go Borners side for the majority of the time because he will come and leave a massive gap behind him. Iorfa had to cover a lot and had the pace to do so. Lees not so much then depending if Palmer was ambling back a huge are would appear on our right hand side.

Pass up near Borner, a quick return, through ball in behind.

Very well observed and explained. Ssssh don't tell anyone.

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On 27/08/2020 at 11:56, Beholder said:

Lees lost the plot last season..

 

One particular home game performance from him was truly horrific.

He’d lost it 3 years ago.

 

Never looked the same player since Leon Clarke made a fool of him, then Jos confused him by asking him to use his left foot.

 

Often gets the wrong side of his man, his positional awareness is poor and he looks very uncomfortable on the ball.

 

That said, he was a good player for three years, but it’s a leap of faith to think he’ll ever be back to the commanding centre half he was.

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14 hours ago, DobbinTheDonkey said:

Tom Lees is more of a blocker than a tackler.

With blocking you give less fouls away and don't leave yourself stranded but you are more likely to concede a higher position as you back track.

It can also give you a bit more time for other players to get back and help.

With a vocal keeper it is a better way of defending as players want you to commit to the tackle so they can draw a foul.

He's also solid in the air, even if he cannot win the ball he will do enough to put the players off.

 

Loovens was more of a blocker to, the defensive line kept it's shape mostly and it showed.

 

However Iorfa and especially Borner get drawn to the ball to try and pinch it. Giving fouls away or getting caught out of position. Iorfa has the pace to recover, Borner doesn't.

Given that both can be caught out, the defensive line stops being a line and is easy to exploit.

 

Playing against us last season any ball just had to go Borners side for the majority of the time because he will come and leave a massive gap behind him. Iorfa had to cover a lot and had the pace to do so. Lees not so much then depending if Palmer was ambling back a huge are would appear on our right hand side.

Pass up near Borner, a quick return, through ball in behind.

I get the feeling you might have played in defence in your youth. Too many people on here expect one defender to be an all singing all dancing superhero. It is all about the unit and quite frankly the unit was a shambles under jos and lees has struggled ever since. 

 

Lees is dependable. He will put his head where it hurts. He will always compete. He isn't messi but he doesn't need to be if he works as part of a solid unit which is supported by the midfield. If Monk has drilled the team on the tactics he wants, they're known understood and the defenders he picks will compliment each other, then Lees will go back to being a very solid championship defender. If we continue to pick disjointed teams with tactics that are clearly not well understood, well, he won't. 

 

Individually lees is a very good defenders defender.

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On 27/08/2020 at 11:28, Bulgaria said:

Lee's has been an excellent signing for us.

 

His form has dipped, but with some new faces, new coaching staff I have every confidence he will be back to his best.

Tom Lees is the least of our worries.

 

This. Not sure he's the best for a back 3 tho. I do like Iorfa in the middle of the 3, his pace just lets him cover the balls in behind so much better than anyone else we have.

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13 hours ago, cookeh said:

 

This. Not sure he's the best for a back 3 tho. I do like Iorfa in the middle of the 3, his pace just lets him cover the balls in behind so much better than anyone else we have.

And leave a gaping hole in the middle

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On 27/08/2020 at 11:28, Bulgaria said:

Lee's has been an excellent signing for us.

 

His form has dipped, but with some new faces, new coaching staff I have every confidence he will be back to his best.

Tom Lees is the least of our worries.

I gotta agree he looked solid the other day, and he was awesome with Loovens at times..but that was years ago now, needs to prove he still has it for me

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In my opinion Tom Lees is hugely influenced by who is next to him and who is behind him.

 

I would guess his best form was with Loovens next to him and Westwood behind him.

 

I don’t think he has the brain or positioning sense required on his own.

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