Messi

[mattitheowl]

15 hours ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

It is, but I doubt he will sign a new contract unless they make significant changes to the structure and to the team. 

As he says in his interview, the club have not had a proper plan for a few years and have been reacting to paper over the cracks rather than being proactive in stopping any cracks appearing. They are short of a Champions League challenge unless they make big changes and as things stand they can't afford to do so. He wants a proper crack at Champions League titles while he still has it in him to be the best but he can't do it on his own. 

He blames the president for the current position of the club. The president did say he might resign but unless that happens soon it won't make much difference in relation to the team this season. They have presidential elections next year but by then it might be too late as Messi will be free to negotiate with other clubs in the last 6 months of his contract.

 

The shirts, image rights etc, - all good money and business for the club but his wages are said to be over £100M per year and he will now apparently get a £63M bonus as part of his current contract just for staying. That on top of perhaps negotiating a compromise fee which is now lost is a lot to pay.

 

Next year he will be available for free as things stand and other big clubs will be looking at the boost his image could give to their image rights, shirt sales etc and may be able to offer bigger wages and more chance of success.

 

The irony being that his wages and bonuses are likely stifling their ability to sign any other world class players and he has the cheek to moan about it.  They have to comply with FFP and he's taking up a huge chunk of that.  He's as big a part of the problem as the president.  No player (however great) should wield so much power at a club.

[sonofbert2]

16 hours ago, mattitheowl said:

 

The big question is what is Messi's real worth to Barca.  Shirts, tourists, global image rights etc, TV deals and all that good stuff.  Any transfer fee and saving on wages could be minimal in comparison.  Realistically he's got 3-4 good years left in him.  Barca need to hang on to him for that time or his image will no longer be associated with them which will have significant economic effects on them.  If he ends his career there they will be able to cash in on him forever, if he leaves they will lose that opportunity.  This is all about business now, not football.

 

This is currently about politics.

 

This is all designed to force the President out a year earlier than normal because he is perceived as a disaster by the clubs’ socios.

 

Even if Messi had gone, he’d have come back and will forever be associated with Barcelona.

 

Bartomeu now being investigated for corruption by Catalan police and Messi publically accused him of lying to him yesterday.

 

Both Real Madrid and Barcelona are very deeply entwined with regional and national politics and the natives really aren’t happy with his tenure as President.

 

[Lord Snooty]

 

Like he was ever leaving

 

[sonofbert2]

7 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Like he was ever leaving

 

 

Exactly.

 

The media coverage here and in Argentina though is at another level.  To see is to believe.  There is nothing comparable in the UK other than maybe the royal family.

 

The President will resign shortly.

 

 

[shandypants]

40 minutes ago, Lord Snooty said:

 

Like he was ever leaving

 

This^. Politics aside, he will (or should) know that Barca have built a team around him and, what’s more, they’re all willingly play second fiddle to him while massaging his ego. It may take a while to create that elsewhere - has he got that amount of time left in his career?
 

Also, (hopefully) without sounding ridiculous, would he get found out at another club? He has played the same style and tactics of football with world class players that play to suit him all of his career. Can he maintain his world class standards outside Barca? Both Ronaldos, Ronaldinho, Zidane and (the greatest of all time) Maradona did - Messi has yet to be tested in this respect and he doesn’t really pull up any trees when he plays for Argentina. 
 

If I was Messi, I’d recognise what side my bread is buttered on and stay at Barca. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by shandypants

[Lord Snooty]

All true perhaps.

But he doesn't need to have contemplated anything at all.

He was never, ever leaving. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, mattitheowl said:

 

The irony being that his wages and bonuses are likely stifling their ability to sign any other world class players and he has the cheek to moan about it.  They have to comply with FFP and he's taking up a huge chunk of that.  He's as big a part of the problem as the president.  No player (however great) should wield so much power at a club.

 

What power does he have? If they can't afford him then get rid of him. Nobody has put a gun to their head and said you must pay Messi this much - they agreed to the contract, they manage the budget, they are responsible for shaping the team.

 

Is it Messi's fault that they paid the 3rd biggest transfer fee of all time for a player they have loaned out? Is it his fault they bought Griezmann for the 4th biggest fee with seemingly no plan to fit him into the team? Dembele, the 5th most expensive, injury prone.

 

As you said, he brings in masses in terms of his profile - if he is part of the problem you suggest, then let him go. Barcelona were European Champions in 2015. They have spent a fair amount of money since and maybe 1 or 2 signings have been a success - not good enough for a club of that stature. In that time Messi, along with Ter Stegen, Alba and Suarez have basically carried them to 3 league titles with Messi top scorer in the league and most assists the last 4 seasons in a row.

 

Which player would you single out to blame for the current financial problems at Wednesday? The board control the money they spend.  

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, shandypants said:

This^. Politics aside, he will (or should) know that Barca have built a team around him and, what’s more, they’re all willingly play second fiddle to him while massaging his ego. It may take a while to create that elsewhere - has he got that amount of time left in his career?
 

Also, (hopefully) without sounding ridiculous, would he get found out at another club? He has played the same style and tactics of football with world class players that play to suit him all of his career. Can he maintain his world class standards outside Barca? Both Ronaldos, Ronaldinho, Zidane and (the greatest of all time) Maradona did - Messi has yet to be tested in this respect and he doesn’t really pull up any trees when he plays for Argentina. 
 

If I was Messi, I’d recognise what side my bread is buttered on and stay at Barca. 

 

Built a team around him? 

Tell me about the successful signings they have made since 2015 and the world class players that they have in their squad currently? He has seen a top team crumble around him yet his standards have remained high.

[shandypants]

7 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

Built a team around him? 

Tell me about the successful signings they have made since 2015 and the world class players that they have in their squad currently? He has seen a top team crumble around him yet his standards have remained high.

That team was arguably the most talented of all time - how can you replace players like Xabi and Iniesta? Barca still have a world class team and Messi hardly carries them. 
 

I’m not “dissing” Messi, he’s one of the greatest, I’m just saying that he’s always surrounded by players that play for him. I do think he’s overhyped though. I can think of at least two players from other eras that were better than he is or has been and the case that Cristiano Ronaldo is a better player is a strong argument. 
 

Im saying that he should stay at Barca because the claim that he’s the greatest ever (which he isn’t IMHO) is at risk if he moves elsewhere. My guess is that he knows this.  

[FreshOwl]

35 minutes ago, shandypants said:

This^. Politics aside, he will (or should) know that Barca have built a team around him and, what’s more, they’re all willingly play second fiddle to him while massaging his ego. It may take a while to create that elsewhere - has he got that amount of time left in his career?
 

Also, (hopefully) without sounding ridiculous, would he get found out at another club? He has played the same style and tactics of football with world class players that play to suit him all of his career. Can he maintain his world class standards outside Barca? Both Ronaldos, Ronaldinho, Zidane and (the greatest of all time) Maradona did - Messi has yet to be tested in this respect and he doesn’t really pull up any trees when he plays for Argentina. 
 

If I was Messi, I’d recognise what side my bread is buttered on and stay at Barca. 

Don’t agree with that first paragraph. Ultimately Messi is bigger than Barcelona. The club may have given him a chance, but look what he’s done for them. if Barcelona hadn’t picked him up he still would have gone on to achieve the same career. They could only ever play second fiddle to him because they aren’t in his league 

 

He’s the greatest player of all time. Now I was too young for the Maradona days - but what I do know is football has developed tenfold and is much faster paced and more technical than the 80’s 

[shandypants]

1 minute ago, FreshOwl said:

Don’t agree with that first paragraph. Ultimately Messi is bigger than Barcelona. The club may have given him a chance, but look what he’s done for them. if Barcelona hadn’t picked him up he still would have gone on to achieve the same career. They could only ever play second fiddle to him because they aren’t in his league 

 

He’s the greatest player of all time. Now I was too young for the Maradona days - but what I do know is football has developed tenfold and is much faster paced and more technical than the 80’s 

No he isn’t. He is the most popular player of all time. Maradona was easily the greatest of all time. 

[FreshOwl]

2 minutes ago, shandypants said:

No he isn’t. He is the most popular player of all time. Maradona was easily the greatest of all time. 

He’s the most popular player because he’s the best. As I said the quality of football 30-40 years ago isn’t comparable to today’s game. No sports science, players not looking after themselves properly. Half were in the boozer, some even on the sniff. Technically it’s developed a huge amount. Would that Maradona still be that player with much better and fitter players against him 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, shandypants said:

That team was arguably the most talented of all time - how can you replace players like Xabi and Iniesta? Barca still have a world class team and Messi hardly carries them. 
 

I’m not “dissing” Messi, he’s one of the greatest, I’m just saying that he’s always surrounded by players that play for him. I do think he’s overhyped though. I can think of at least two players from other eras that were better than he is or has been and the case that Cristiano Ronaldo is a better player is a strong argument. 
 

Im saying that he should stay at Barca because the claim that he’s the greatest ever (which he isn’t IMHO) is at risk if he moves elsewhere. My guess is that he knows this.  

 

I disagree. 

I watch Spanish football regularly and have watched about 90% of Barcelona's games in the past 15 years or so. They do not have a world class team anymore and most commentators of Spanish and European football will tell you that.

 

Ronaldo is a great player. He has moved to a team that wins their domestic league as easily as Celtic do. Their trophy haul and progression in Europe has declined in the last two seasons.

[shandypants]

3 minutes ago, FreshOwl said:

He’s the most popular player because he’s the best. As I said the quality of football 30-40 years ago isn’t comparable to today’s game. No sports science, players not looking after themselves properly. Half were in the boozer, some even on the sniff. Technically it’s developed a huge amount. Would that Maradona still be that player with much better and fitter players against him 

That’s a flawed argument that Is trotted out constantly. Footballers today are fitter and look after themselves but that doesn’t mean they are better. Maradona, Pele, George Best, Cruyff, Platini, Bobby Charlton, Gascogne et al all played in eras where you played hard and partied harder, no doubt, but they played on pitches that were little more than bogs against opposition players that were brutal in the tackle - my guess is that they would be even better in today’s conditions with today’s level of protection and they would be as fit as any of today’s footballers and would be able to play at the same pace. 
 

Messi is one of the greatest but not THE greatest. 

[FreshOwl]

1 minute ago, shandypants said:

That’s a flawed argument that Is trotted out constantly. Footballers today are fitter and look after themselves but that doesn’t mean they are better. Maradona, Pele, George Best, Cruyff, Platini, Bobby Charlton, Gascogne et al all played in eras where you played hard and partied harder, no doubt, but they played on pitches that were little more than bogs against opposition players that were brutal in the tackle - my guess is that they would be even better in today’s conditions with today’s level of protection and they would be as fit as any of today’s footballers and would be able to play at the same pace. 
 

Messi is one of the greatest but not THE greatest. 

Fair enough, I just don’t agree sorry. I’ve watched many games from that era, and the speed and quality just isn’t comparable. This is probably also due to the influx of foreign players in our game now.

I remember watching PL years 1993/1994 on sky once and the quality was probably of lower-end championship standard 

[shandypants]

3 minutes ago, hirstyboywonder said:

 

I disagree. 

I watch Spanish football regularly and have watched about 90% of Barcelona's games in the past 15 years or so. They do not have a world class team anymore and most commentators of Spanish and European football will tell you that.

 

Ronaldo is a great player. He has moved to a team that wins their domestic league as easily as Celtic do. Their trophy haul and progression in Europe has declined in the last two seasons.

I didn’t say Ronaldo is better than Messi. I just said the the argument that he is is strong. 
 

Messi would be around 3rd, 4th or 5th (possibly lower) on my list of greatest ever. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, shandypants said:

I didn’t say Ronaldo is better than Messi. I just said the the argument that he is is strong. 
 

Messi would be around 3rd, 4th or 5th (possibly lower) on my list of greatest ever. 

 

That's not the debate we are having here is it?

 

Tell me about the strength of the Barcelona squad relative to the best teams in Europe when their aim is to continually be number 1. Tell me about the way they play, their current philosophy and the balance of the team.

Tell me about how much money they have spent since 2015 and how well those signings have worked out.

[WorrallOwl17]

On ‎05‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 13:12, shandypants said:

I didn’t say Ronaldo is better than Messi. I just said the the argument that he is is strong. 
 

Messi would be around 3rd, 4th or 5th (possibly lower) on my list of greatest ever. 

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

[pazowl55]

On 05/09/2020 at 13:12, shandypants said:

I didn’t say Ronaldo is better than Messi. I just said the the argument that he is is strong. 
 

Messi would be around 3rd, 4th or 5th (possibly lower) on my list of greatest ever. 

Which 4 players are/were better than Messi then.

[IWEDFM]

1 hour ago, pazowl55 said:

Which 4 players are/were better than Messi then.

 

To be honest mate it's all about opinions and even age as it depends on what generation you were around to see

 

For instance older folk will probably say Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona etc whilst the younger generation will say Messi, Ronaldo, Zidane, Fat Ronaldo etc.

 

There is no right or wrong