Breaking news. SWFC v EFL

[prowl]

1 hour ago, Owls-Fan said:

So do we think the reason for the long wait to hear an outcome from the IDC went like this,  SWFC and EFL submitted all the documents to the IDC.  The IDC reviewed and saw that we breached the rules last year and asked EFL to explain why the punishment didn’t get enforced then. EFL went “oh sh*t, umm err someone think of a reason that doesn’t sound dodgy”. Few weeks later they finally admit to IDC they have no answer to the postponement. IDC give us a 12 point deduction for next season.  

I know the Sun is a rag but I don't see why they would make this up. If they want a sensational article they would want it about a top club. I know we think we are but in reality we are nothing, we aren't in the Premiership so we don't count. Why risk a court action by the EFL over what is to the footballing world a small story.

 

They must have a good source for this story.

 

At this stage all we can do is take the story as read.

[StudentOwl]

Just now, S36 OWL said:

 

The EFL are allowing these failure payments in the championship. The buck stops with them. 

The simplest solution in mind has always been to continue to permit them but don't include them in P&S calculations.

 

They're intended to allow big contracts for clubs wanting to try and survive in the Prem without relegated clubs getting crippled by the loss of TV money and having to honour those contracts. Obviously there's a whole discussion around that to be had, but let's just take that at face value and say fair enough. The most elegant and easy solution, one that requires absolutely no consultation or agreement from Prem clubs, would be for the EFL to just remove that from the P&S metrics. These relegated clubs continue to get the parachute payment money that makes them solvent (so to speak), but they get no leg-up in terms of head-start over the rest of the competition.

 

Considering it seems a relatively easy fix to at least go some way to mitigate against the problems parachute payments cause, I can only assume the EFL aren't that bothered by it all.

[Guest gizowl]

25 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

If I were Derby I would be a bit worried now. Looks like the EFL will try and take it out on them having failed with us.

I think the sheep will get off scot free ,they didn't put the sale in the wrong yrs accounts they have a board member on the EFL committee and they are still at it with cash injections from third parties in exchange for assets. It's like the mafia the EFL is incompetent and corrupt. 

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

3 hours ago, neo hippy said:

More proof of incompetence at the EFL, clearly just making it up as they go long. All timescales regarding such important rules like these should be written in stone. It's crazy to think decisions involving so much money are just being made on a whim. Wouldn't happen anywhere else in the professional world.

 

This report will be a very interesting read. 

 

That is because the EFL are amateurs !

[prowl]

43 minutes ago, jomaco said:

This is why I was so annoyed about the last few games..... just a couple of wins or whatever and all this would have been avoided. However, don't forget that for months and months we had absolutely no idea how many points might have been required.

 

some people say it would have relegated us, well of course it would, but had we known months before performances would have been different rather than just thinking well this season's over...

 

 

I'm old fashioned, I expect players to go out every game and try their utmost to win. On that basis it shouldn't matter when the points deduction is applied. The players couldn't try harder because we had a 12 point deficit to make up.

 

 

Would the players we had have tried more or less if they had imposed the penalty in say February? I'm not sure.

[sonofbert2]

9 minutes ago, prowl said:

I know the Sun is a rag but I don't see why they would make this up. If they want a sensational article they would want it about a top club. I know we think we are but in reality we are nothing, we aren't in the Premiership so we don't count. Why risk a court action by the EFL over what is to the footballing world a small story.

 

They must have a good source for this story.

 

At this stage all we can do is take the story as read.

 

Nixon has been leaked the report.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by sonofbert2

[Animis]

The Derby case is similar in that it revolves around the ground sale essentially writing off the debt in 2017/18, and thus avoiding the 3-yr FFP breach. Should the Independent panel agree that they can register the sale, like us it just comes down to what year.

 

According to the reports, Morris bought Derby’s stadium for £81.1m according to Land Registry records, on 28 June 2018, two days before the 30 June year end for the club’s 2017-18 financial accounts.The sale of the stadium was apparently recorded as a profit of £39.9m presumably during the 2017-18 financial year, which reversed a loss of £25.3m into a pre-tax profit of £14.6m. Derby recorded losses of approximately £8m in 2016-17, and £14.7m the year before that, so without the stadium sale two days before the 2017-18 year end, they could have made total published losses of £48m.

 

However, should the independent panel rule they can include the sale in 17/18, I assume they'll be ok. If not, and they say the sale should be, like SWFC, in 18/19, then they'll be deducted at least 12 points.

[Guest gizowl]

38 minutes ago, pazowl55 said:

If I were Derby I would be a bit worried now. Looks like the EFL will try and take it out on them having failed with us.

I think the sheep will get off scot free ,they didn't put the sale in the wrong yrs accounts they have a board member on the EFL committee and they are still at it with cash injections from third parties in exchange for assets. It's like the mafia the EFL is incompetent and corrupt. And  that scouse arse  hole is behind it. 

[prowl]

15 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

I never said it was written off. 

You never wore a seatbelt  two years ago (broke the rules). You scrap the car two years ago (end of season 17/18). Two years after the fact, CCTV footage notes you broke the rules a couple of years ago (the FFP charge). You can't then backdate the punishment by two years and take away the old car (backdating the points deduction to the 17/18 table), because that's no punishment at all. You don't have the car any more. You're not in the 17/18 season any more. Backdating the points deduction is no punishment at all and makes zero sense. 

 

In absolutely no way have I said therefore starting the 20/21 season with a 12 points deduction is justified. 

What I am saying (that very few people are advocating for tbf) is that backdating the points deduction to a previous season makes as much sense as taking a car away from you that you no longer own. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

 

It still doesn't work. There is no insurance penalty for not wearing your seatbelt if you damage your car. You might get a fine from the police. you might get personal injury claim reduced.

 

The rules say a penalty shall be imposed, for the EFL to try to impose it at the point of maximum impact is not part of the regulations. For them to try to do so is at the least bad faith. They are there to uphold the rules not make them up as they go along.

[StudentOwl]

6 minutes ago, prowl said:

It still doesn't work. There is no insurance penalty for not wearing your seatbelt if you damage your car. You might get a fine from the police. you might get personal injury claim reduced.

 

The rules say a penalty shall be imposed, for the EFL to try to impose it at the point of maximum impact is not part of the regulations. For them to try to do so is at the least bad faith. They are there to uphold the rules not make them up as they go along.

Well, precedent is that these punishments are dished out a year after the offence... see Brum.

So (I may be wrong on this), by that logic the 12 points should have come last season, not for this coming one... Which means we go down? That's if the EFL are being consistent.

 

Of course, they can't do that now because of the independent panel deciding it would be too late in the season to be fair. 

 

The way I see it, it's a clusterfuck bought on by their own incompetence... but the bottom line is that 12 points deduction is deemed a fair and reasonable punishment for the rules we broke, and if we can't backdate it, and if applying it last season sends us down... then really this is the only option we've got left. 

 

Unless an appeal decides the level of bad-faith from the EFL is just that high... but two wrongs don't make a right, and I doubt any appeal from us would determine that the (just) points deduction can be reneged on because it wasn't applied in a season that would send us down? 

[WalthamOwl]

Looking forward to reading the report. Nixon saying it’s all very strange. 

[nevthelodgemoorowl]

1 hour ago, ChapSmurf said:

 

I don't think anyone is arguing about why we are, where we are. We broke the FFP rules, plain and simple. However, those rules are way past their sell-by date and were introduced when the financial landscape was different to what it is now. That doesn't mean we, or any other club, have the right to go around breaking them, but change is needed and it is needed now.

 

At any one time, there could be as many as 9 football clubs in receipt of parachute payments in the Championship. I think we would all agree that parachute payments are wrong. However, let's look at it from a relegated clubs perspective, who, due to the crazy finances invovled in football transfers, wages, and the ridiculous agents fees, are bent over and shafted just to survive. They could get their house in order, and not give in to the amounts requested by clubs, players and their agents, but an individual club will know that one of their rivals will. Because of that, they have to follow suit. Can we get the PL to govern its finances better and introduce wage/transfer caps? Not a chance. There is too much money involved, without even touching the subject of legalities.

 

So what can be done? In my opinion, a club should be allowed to invest, by way of a loan from the Chairman - with certain clauses attached as not to ruin the football club if they left/sold the club - up to the same amount as is being received in parachute payments by an individual club, thereby giving some parity back to those who can afford it. Why shouldn't clubs like ours, Bristol City, Derby and no doubt others, be allowed to spend what they want, as long as there are clauses built in with regards to the loan agreement? It's stifling the businesses and making the entire league uncompetitive, financially. That's why we have ended up where we are, although the ultimate decision to do what we did lies with our Chairman still. There is no escaping that.

 

In no other industry are there caps on what an individual business can spend on Capex/Opex costs. Until such times as the entire world of football gets its finances in check, I don't see any alternative. And I do appreciate the irony of what I've just said.

 

The FA is not the useless Org everyone assume. The ultimate Ace is still held by the FA in the form of 'Registration as a Football Club'. The FA does have the power to take the game back for every ones benefit if only they could find the balls and the right people ! SCREW THE EPL AND THE EFL ! ONE GAME, ONE LEAD BODY FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL ! 

[SwellOwl]

So according to Dom, made public tomorrow and both SWFC and EFL have until Tuesday to appeal.

 

I get the feeling this is not the end of this saga..

[WalthamOwl]

Wouldn’t it be nice to just be able to get on with football rather than having this constantly hanging around our necks. Really am sick and tired of it. Can see an appeal from either us or them and it just dragging on and on well in to next season and being a massive distraction. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by WalthamOwl

[Nero]

1 hour ago, Sheff74 said:

 

I am not an expert, but I don't think there is anything within the rules which states when a points deduction has to be applied, apart from admin situations. So on that basis, it was presumably in their gift to pursue a deduction when they wanted to, especially if they were pushing for a higher penalty, which would lead to an inevitable delay.

 

I will need to read the full report, but it doesn't sound like the EFL authorities need to justify why and when they chose to pursue the case. If anything, they might now decide to appeal the panel's decision to defer the points deduction to next season.

We are judging on snipets so far yes but it sounds like the tribunal are inferring that the points deduction should have hit in 18 19 as per Birmingham.

The question is, in terms of the EFL who should be looking after all clubs equally, why were they pushing for a higher penalty ie relegation?

Trying to make an example of a club that has never received parachute payments and at worst has breached on a technicality seems to be at best unfair or open to allegations of corruption.

No chance they can appeal the season applying. Not enough time. CAS would crucify them.

[Maddogbob]

45 minutes ago, TrickyTrev said:

Ah, the old “well we were late with their punishment so can be late with yours” argument. 

I imagine that's what they will use. 

[Animis]

1 minute ago, WalthamOwl said:

Wouldn’t it be nice to just be able to get on with football rather than having this constantly hanging around our necks. Really am sick and tired of it. Can see an appeal from either us or them and it just dragging on and on well in to next season and being a massive distraction. 

 

The saving grace will be we post a profit in 18/19 accounts, to be published shortly.  However, our cumulative 3-yr loses will be £18m (2017), £32m (2018) so £50m already. With the sale netting £38m we are on -£12m so can't afford to post loses of more than £28m which we should do surely? It's the 2017/18 season (£32m) loses that are the albatross around the club's neck for the next two years. Once this falls away in 2022, we can hopefully be more competitive.

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, StudentOwl said:

Well, precedent is that these punishments are dished out a year after the offence... see Brum.

So (I may be wrong on this), by that logic the 12 points should have come last season, not for this coming one... Which means we go down? That's if the EFL are being consistent.

 

Of course, they can't do that now because of the independent panel deciding it would be too late in the season to be fair. 

 

The way I see it, it's a clusterfuck bought on by their own incompetence... but the bottom line is that 12 points deduction is deemed a fair and reasonable punishment for the rules we broke, and if we can't backdate it, and if applying it last season sends us down... then really this is the only option we've got left. 

 

Unless an appeal decides the level of bad-faith from the EFL is just that high... but two wrongs don't make a right, and I doubt any appeal from us would determine that the (just) points deduction can be reneged on because it wasn't applied in a season that would send us down? 

 

How do you work that out?

The offence was in the same accounting period as Birmingham's and they were deducted in 2018-19, not last season. 

[CalmJimmers]

What really gets my goat is the labelling of these rules as Financial 'Fair Play'. 

 

Somebody will have to explain to me how it is fair to not have a time limit on punishment, then try and make it as punitive as possible. How is that any way to run a competition? If anybody thinks that it fair tell me why, because it seems grossly unfair and arbitrary. 

 

How is it also 'fair' to have potentially 9 clubs out of 24 getting parachute payments? You can even get parachute payments potentially in Leagues 1 & 2 for crying out loud. 

 

How is it also fair for clubs who have flouted the rules to then go up and reap the rewards of multiple seasons in the Prem, then potentially have years of parachute payments on top of that? Happened with QPR and Bournemouth and they only got fines didn't they?

 

Not disputing we broke the rules as they have been set out - what I think we should dispute is that the punishment system makes a mockery of 'fairness'. 

[TrickyTrev]

22 minutes ago, SwellOwl said:

So according to Dom, made public tomorrow and both SWFC and EFL have until Tuesday to appeal.

 

I get the feeling this is not the end of this saga..

Tomorrow morning when the report is made public.....